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Rebalancing the Stuka Dive Bomb

12 Jun 2016, 18:56 PM
#41
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2016, 15:57 PMArnoLaz


I would say leave stuka as it is, but buff other stuff, especially buildable Howtizers, and especially self-propeled ones like Priest and Sexton, cause now i fear (and use) Pack Howie more than real howies with greater effect, and it aint normal. Artilery is joke in this game, itš either to week or comes too late, actually i loved British op abilieties when they were op, at start, they made me fear them, made me take actions,l now when i see 350 muni bomber run, i just laugh my arse off and move everything away with no damage (just repair some trucks after).

As i see this ability can be problem in games with more than 3v3, but from my experience i go to em when i want to see a real clusterfuck, some war action ,and i basicly get it so whats to whine about. AND do u 3v3 (4v4) players want to say me that u go to play these game modes for strategy, or u go to play them just for fun (action/death/clusterfuck)? I bet its 2nd answer, then get it that fun is relative - its botth fun to blow blob up with stuka, and with calliOPe alike.

In competitive levels, where u need to think more, than just spam shit - i mean 1v1 or, to less extent 2v2, stuka bomb isnt much problem.


The AOE is so large that it is hard to get a pack howie out of the blast zone, even if you respond right away. Same thing for 57mm at gun, and having a Vet2 or Vet3 at gun decrewed when you've almost backed it out of the blast zone is really annoying.

I don't often see the stuka in 2v2's but if one hits it often swings the game. The AOE means that you can't all of your major, ambulance, and units out of the AOE.

TBH, one of the annoying thing about off-map air in this game is how completely antihistorical it is. The tiny remnants of the Luftwaffe in 1945 mostly tried to defend Germany for aerial attack, not close air support. There really shouldn't be a Stuka loiter, dive bomb, etc. On the other hand, US should have much better off-map air.
12 Jun 2016, 19:02 PM
#42
avatar of PencilBatRation

Posts: 794

If your main enthusiasm is history then you may want to switch hobbies.




Read a book, watch a documentary, etc
12 Jun 2016, 19:13 PM
#44
avatar of ArnoLaz

Posts: 266

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2016, 18:56 PMGrumpy


The AOE is so large that it is hard to get a pack howie out of the blast zone, even if you respond right away. Same thing for 57mm at gun, and having a Vet2 or Vet3 at gun decrewed when you've almost backed it out of the blast zone is really annoying.

I don't often see the stuka in 2v2's but if one hits it often swings the game. The AOE means that you can't all of your major, ambulance, and units out of the AOE.

TBH, one of the annoying thing about off-map air in this game is how completely antihistorical it is. The tiny remnants of the Luftwaffe in 1945 mostly tried to defend Germany for aerial attack, not close air support. There really shouldn't be a Stuka loiter, dive bomb, etc. On the other hand, US should have much better off-map air.


1st Did u read anything i wrote? I was talkin about buffing everything, especially howitzers (withc btw is more in allied side than german)

2nd - Ability is used by OST and represent eastern front, (and most important German weapon which basicly represents blitzkrieg ) where CAS was used much more frequently, not the western front, which BTW IRL wasnt as important, cause all it did was shorten war by max 2 years and saved western europe from getting into soviet hands.

3rd - if u want history - we shall remove Comets and Pershings and Ostwinds/Centaurs but Shermans/Jaksons/T34s shall cost like 40 fuel max. Ah and true - usf/ukf has to get 50 muni Air support abilities. This game would be much more easier to historise if it represented 39-41 timeframe, without much wunderwaffe from both sides.
12 Jun 2016, 19:33 PM
#46
avatar of Wygrif

Posts: 278

Stuka dive bomb is clearly overperforming and probably overpowered as well. It needs a nerf, flares, or a major cost increase.
12 Jun 2016, 19:50 PM
#47
avatar of ArnoLaz

Posts: 266

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2016, 19:33 PMWygrif
Stuka dive bomb is clearly overperforming and probably overpowered as well. It needs a nerf, flares, or a major cost increase.


Yes it needs to be nerfed like UKF bombing run, so no one ever use it. (i would agree on cost increase to 200)
12 Jun 2016, 19:52 PM
#48
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

I still don't understand why it needs to kill infantry within 15m simply by touching them. If we don't want to touch its AOE then remove the instant death crit from the ability which could probably go to all artillery that crits infantry even if they're on the outer edges.
12 Jun 2016, 19:52 PM
#49
avatar of Cultist_kun

Posts: 295 | Subs: 1

Should we nerf democharge aswell?

I still don't understand why it needs to kill infantry within 15m simply by touching them. If we don't want to touch its AOE then remove the instant death crit from the ability which could probably go to all artillery that crits infantry even if they're on the outer edges.


Welp becauce Stuka is kinda a skill shot ability, which requres prediction and luck. Not to mention that Stuka cound be countered by mass retreat (its not a bad think because you know Air supperiority force you to do this aswell). Not to mention that if you are not a blober Stuka is not more dangerious then any other arty.

If you look on it from the insane wipe possability then yes, it should be nerfed but also demo charges and other insta wipe arty then. If you look on it from arty perpective its not THAT good.
12 Jun 2016, 19:54 PM
#51
avatar of ArnoLaz

Posts: 266

Should we nerf democharge aswell?


Love this.. :D I have wiped far more units by demos than stuka, just saying.
12 Jun 2016, 19:55 PM
#52
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Should we nerf democharge aswell?


Demos charge doesnt kill all models in the aoe.
Dive bomb does.

Not to mention that you can sweep it and even without sweeper you can avoid it like 8/10 times just by using brain.
12 Jun 2016, 19:59 PM
#53
avatar of Cultist_kun

Posts: 295 | Subs: 1



Demos charge doesnt kill all models in the aoe.
Dive bomb does.

Not to mention that you can sweep it and even without sweeper you can avoid it like 8/10 times just by using brain.


Even if it doesnt, how often you see wipes from demos even in competitive games? Now compare numbers of wipes and devastating power of demo charge to stuka, in general.

Oh so hearing sound of stuka and like ~10 seconds before drop is way to hard for allie player to mass retreat if he cant predict where its going to hit. Seems legit.
12 Jun 2016, 20:01 PM
#54
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

Well, I'm pretty sure the Demo also instant crits infantry for absolutely no reason as well.

As I said, remove the crit from all artillery and explosives. Adjust their AOE if necessary then.
12 Jun 2016, 20:02 PM
#55
avatar of ArnoLaz

Posts: 266



Demos charge doesnt kill all models in the aoe.
Dive bomb does.

Not to mention that you can sweep it and even without sweeper you can avoid it like 8/10 times just by using brain.


Avoid, without sweeper? Good luck. U can avoid stuka easier just by using brains + stuka is on some half shitty comanders, and is avaible only after 12th point which basicly doesnt offer anything else, thus the most heavy stuff u can meet is panther :D , while demo is avaible from start (for USF/SOV and 3/4 cps UKF (and if u manage good fast one, its basicly game win.) Have had far more demo changing games than stuka ones. Here is 2 of em and


I propose to remove insta dead critical (and decrease death area to sturmitger one, while leaving existing AOE intact, with damage graduating down after every 1 metre) or increase cost to 200. Actually 2 months ago i tested all offmap abilities in CheatMode and stuka was one of deadliest ones.
12 Jun 2016, 20:35 PM
#56
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2016, 20:02 PMArnoLaz


Avoid, without sweeper? Good luck.


Try to use brain and micro units and you will.

For example, don't cross obvious narrow passages - jump over fences.

Don't send squad to take point by clicking on a point - so they will take it in a middle where demo probably is - order them to cap at the end of the circle.

If you can;t avoid them by micro and cleverness, it does not mean that others cant
12 Jun 2016, 20:37 PM
#57
avatar of PencilBatRation

Posts: 794

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2016, 20:02 PMArnoLaz


I propose to remove insta dead critical
And reduce the delay to 4 seconds, done.
12 Jun 2016, 20:39 PM
#58
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 927



Funny this is coming from someone whose games are 70% Ostheer...



I would only use stuka bomb dive if i wanted to lose.
12 Jun 2016, 21:04 PM
#59
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072



Try to use brain and micro units and you will.

For example, don't cross obvious narrow passages - jump over fences.

Don't send squad to take point by clicking on a point - so they will take it in a middle where demo probably is - order them to cap at the end of the circle.

If you can;t avoid them by micro and cleverness, it does not mean that others cant


Demos are the same mentality as mines but bigger. Mines discouraged harassment. So do demos. Wiping even 1 axis squad usually means a huge shift in the game since they often have a 60 or 90 munitions upgrade on them as well. Plus oh so precious vet. If you guys think demo is ok but stuka bomb isn't, there's no use arguing with you.

Stuka requires LOS so you only need to move the units that are within seeing distance of the enemy. Its usually fairly obvious where it's gonna land.

I honestly can't remember when I last lost more than 1 unit to stuka dive bomb.

Also, if you're annoyed that it can destroy you FRP, that's your problem for either A. Not protecting it, or B. Putting it too far forward and being greedy with your field presence. EFAs don't even get FRPs. Stuka dive bombs help balance the cheese that the newer faction get exclusively.
12 Jun 2016, 21:21 PM
#60
avatar of ArnoLaz

Posts: 266



Try to use brain and micro units and you will.

If you can;t avoid them by micro and cleverness, it does not mean that others cant


I even get u 2 replays where I use em effectivly on others. And thats MID level play - its 50-200 level, so from your post i see u are just stubborn mate. When one has played over 1000 games, one just know units usual pathways, so one doesnt plant em just on narrow pathways , and still plenty on maps like Semois, lost glider, angovile etc.

To effectivly use demos u plant em - 1st Near frequent used houses, 2nd - around corners blocking truesight (both neglet sweepers), 3rd - put on frequent unit passage, like teller mines 4th - put em on frequently used unit covers, cars/fences most used enemy.

Demos work wonders using ASS engies from USF, cause no one expects mines/demos from USF, i have won countless games using em.
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