Give Ostheer panther the OKW Panther stats

The suggestion I make is in the title. I see no reason at all why the Ostheer Panther that arrives later should have worse stats than the OKW one which can already be accessed in the mid game. A problem of Ostheer tier 4 is that tier 3 does everything as well. To not overbuff the Panther I think the higher accuracy of the OKW Panthers MGs should also apply to the Ostheer Panther. That actually makes a difference.

The fuel difference also does not reflect the units performance. For years they were the same cost. The fuel on the OKW Panther was just increased to adjust the unit pacing and full income OKW got.

The suggestion I make is in the title. I see no reason at all why the Ostheer Panther that arrives later should have worse stats than the OKW one which can already be accessed in the mid game. A problem of Ostheer tier 4 is that tier 3 does everything as well. To not overbuff the Panther I think the higher accuracy of the OKW Panthers MGs should also apply to the Ostheer Panther. That actually makes a difference.

The fuel difference also does not reflect the units performance. For years they were the same cost. The fuel on the OKW Panther was just increased to adjust the unit pacing and full income OKW got.

Tier 4 building and tech cost will be lowered in upcoming patch, so I think it will be fine. Still I do think the higher fuel cost has to be taken into account because of it's 5 levels of vet and higher mg dps.

Why get a panther when you can get 2 stugs that vet 1000 times fast and have 1000 times the DPS? I guess survivabilty is the only reason but panther just isn't really worth its cost imo. Veto the maps that don't work for stugs because they usually don't work for ostheer in general.

Tier 4 building and tech cost will be lowered in upcoming patch, so I think it will be fine. Still I do think the higher fuel cost has to be taken into account because of it's 5 levels of vet and higher mg dps.

Not enough to make a difference.

At least in vCOH you had the option of usually going T1->T3 or T1->T2->T4 because fuel costs were lower.

In this game it's ALWAYS T1->T2->T3 and their dumb changes don't affect anything.

They need a complete redesign where all HQ changes are cheap and unit costs in each tier are increased, but they don't have the full team needed to test that and get that out in this point of the design cycle.

All Tier 4 units are a waste of money and time given the way they've balanced it. They might as well just remove it from the game.

Not enough to make a difference.

At least in vCOH you had the option of usually going T1->T3 or T1->T2->T4 because fuel costs were lower.

In this game it's ALWAYS T1->T2->T3 and their dumb changes don't affect anything.

They need a complete redesign where all HQ changes are cheap and unit costs in each tier are increased, but they don't have the full team needed to test that and get that out in this point of the design cycle.

All Tier 4 units are a waste of money and time given the way they've balanced it. They might as well just remove it from the game.

check my signature.

45 cheaper fuel is quite a bit. the wehr is going to have the second lowest total fuel cost in the game, second to the soviet.

the wehr tech tree trade in flexibility for cost. they have the least flexible tech tree in the game, but its one of the cheapest in terms of manpower and fuel.

My only issue with the Ostheer Panther is its terrible accuracy on the move. It really can't afford to miss shots with its low ROF.

Move it to 0.6 so it's a tad better in its role as a mobile tank hunter.

My only issue with the Ostheer Panther is its terrible accuracy on the move. It really can't afford to miss shots with its low ROF.

Move it to 0.6 so it's a tad better in its role as a mobile tank hunter.

but you can stop and you will get the stationary accuracy. its not like panther is so slow that it cannot afford to stop once in a while most of the time.

does the OST panther have the lowest moving accuracy?

OP: if anything, OKW panther should come in line with OST one. OST panther was always good except it was inaccessible. then OKW come with fancy "less but better" concept which got them better panther. now the "less" has been rolled back almost completely while "better" still stays for the most part.

check my signature.

45 cheaper fuel is quite a bit. the wehr is going to have the second lowest total fuel cost in the game, second to the soviet.

the wehr tech tree trade in flexibility for cost. they have the least flexible tech tree in the game, but its one of the cheapest in terms of manpower and fuel.

Does the total tech cost consider efficiency? Because ost doesnt get anything out of teching (except riflenade) while others get free squads or field trucks etc which dramatically increases the tech efficiency.

The thing is that ost panther is cheaper and it makes a huge difference in lenghtening games where its low pop and cost matters. In team games I would even say its spammable.

It also is one of those units that make ostheer so commander independent. In current build going for non meta commander as soviets or usf is often a death sentence, while ostheer can deal with late game easily if they tech t4 and go for panther instead of callin. It definitely has a purpose in ostheer tech tree and doesn't need any huge adjustments.

Does the total tech cost consider efficiency? Because ost doesnt get anything out of teching (except riflenade) while others get free squads or field trucks etc which dramatically increases the tech efficiency.

ost get riflenade and lmg42 from teching. Ost also get two of the cheapest and most cost effective vehicle killer in the entire game, the 222 and the stug.

it's nuts how cost effective both of those units are.

ostheer is a faction of specialized glass cannon. It demand the use of combined arms from its player but have the best combined arm potential as well.

Slightly more accurate LMGs won't do shit against "extremely hard to hit" vet 3 RM/Cons/IS.


What it needs is faster reload time.

but you can stop and you will get the stationary accuracy. its not like panther is so slow that it cannot afford to stop once in a while most of the time.

does the OST panther have the lowest moving accuracy?

0.5 Moving vs the 0.6 of the OKW one.

0.5 Moving vs the 0.6 of the OKW one.

I would rather lower that value on okw panther to keep it in line with all other axis tanks. And all not historically stabilised tanks in whole game.

1) The most annoying thing about the Panther (and other tanks in general) is that reload time tends to fluctuate a bit. Thus, if you are trying to use the Stop-and-Fire trick, it is a bit difficult to predict when it is time to fire.

Perhaps all tanks should be given the balance-patch T-34 treatment?

2) The other pet-peeve I have about OKW vs OST tanks is the "OKW Combat Blitz" vs the "OST Blitzkrieg" ability.
- OKW simply gets a far superior Vet1 ability, on the same vehicles, for the same cost
- It's not about asymmetric balance. Stat-for-stat it is far superior. There is no trade-off there.
- "OKW Combat Blitz" is so ridiculous that it is even better than the Brit-equivalent ability. Think about that!

What needs to be done:
- OST used to have high speed bonuses on Panthers etc, but it was nerfbatted (Now, every single OST tank gets a different version of the Blitzkrieg ability). This was in order to make Panthers actually killable.
- The speed bonuses on the Panther, and other, already highly-durable units should not be as high. It makes OKW Panthers IMPOSSIBLE to kill (unless it's vs Brits, or unless it's a terrible misplay)

3) Another thing that peeves me about OST-equivalent vehicles is that the OKW versions cost exactly the same amount of manpower and popcap (despite being strictly better). This is crucial since:
- OKW is already incredibly manpower-efficient, with cheap, all-purpose infantry.
- The manpower over-efficiency of their tanks is really what allows OKW to spam both infantry, and also be able to field late-game tanks
- Compare this to stock Soviets, which are the exact polar opposite (T-34: underpriced in terms of fuel, vastly overpriced in terms of manpower).
- Manpower (and popcap), NOT fuel is the bottleneck resource of the late-game
- Fuel price for OKW tanks could go down, but MP price (and popcap) should go up if they continue to remain better.

How much fuel do YOU float in your Soviet games?