Churchill is garbage

i was pointing out the potency of the gun

By providing a scenario where you need to play vs potato as even AI knows to keep your distance.

What will you do next?

Provide example of M-42 potency by shooting StuG in the rear armor from range of 0?

Should someone make a vid of shocks losing at long range to osttruppen as a clear example of shocks being underpowered and requiring serious buffs?

Your logic is flawed.
Your methodology is flawed.
Your examples are biased AF.

still quite potent for an anti infantry tank

Ok sure. in this not in game scenario. But if you keep distance with your tiger you would suddenly see the shots from the churchill getting deflected while you would still damage it with your tiger. There is no excuse for that shitty video.

By providing a scenario where you need to play vs potato as even AI knows to keep your distance.

What will you do next?

Provide example of M-42 potency by shooting StuG in the rear armor from range of 0?

look carefully at the 2 post to find the answer and if you need to defend a position you can't back away forever
Btw still no filing opinion kat ffs enlighten us with your wisdom and give us the answer that we so desperately seek
Im all in to make the Churchill great again but not like that

Ok sure. in this not in game scenario. But if you keep distance with your tiger you would suddenly see the shots from the churchill getting deflected while you would still damage it with your tiger. There is no excuse for that shitty video.

not with 320 armor and the fall of is not dat high

Slowest tank loses horrible at zero range to a tank which would decimate it at range.

*slow clap*

Worst..... argument.... ever!

Slowest tank loses horrible at zero range to a tank which would decimate it at range.

*slow clap*

Worst..... argument.... ever!

*facepalm* as I said I was pointing out the potency of the gun for an anti infantry tank and his cost I said that if we buff Churchill we need to count the gun wich is not bad if you just read the suggestions they are all buff

*facepalm* as I said I was pointing out the potency of the gun for an anti infantry tank and his cost I said that if we buff Churchill we need to count the gun wich is not bad if you just read the suggestions they are all buff

Its NOT anti infantry tank.

Crocodile is anti infantry.
Command P4 is anti infantry.

Is cromwell anti infantry to you?
Because this is the gun churchill uses.

Its generalist, no matter how you look at it.

The gun is dreadfully HORRIBLE armament for 180 fuel unit.

not with 320 armor and the fall of is not dat high

this is still theory crafting unless you've actually mod it and test it yourself.

I will mod the churchill with 1280 hp and 320 armor, come back with the result.

and really, it's more important for the churchill to have good hp and armor than for it to have a decent gun. lower the penetration to 80/100/120 if needed.

this related to the cromwell as well. It's important for the cromwell tank to have good survivability (size 18) than a decent gun. The british still have comet/firefly/6pdr for handling tank.

this is still theory crafting unless you've actually mod it and test it yourself.

I will mod the churchill with 1280 hp and 320 armor, come back with the result.

and really, it's more important for the churchill to have good hp and armor than for it to have a decent gun. lower the penetration to 80/100/120 if needed.

this related to the cromwell as well. It's important for the cromwell tank to have good survivability (size 18) than a decent gun. The british still have comet/firefly/6pdr for handling tank.

but rember that it will be spammed and the pack would be useless

really, there's one golden rule in this case: can the panther beat the churchill 1v1.

the panther should still be able to kill the churchill on a 1v1 basis, but it should take a long time.

This sounds like a great golden rule (a meatshield tank is not a meatshield tank if it evaporates quickly).

However, in order to keep it balanced, Churchill should be given a potato gun (so that the Panther doesn't die). The problem with potato-gun meatshields is that they become extremely unattractive to fire upon. (Thus, the enemy ignores them and jumps straight for the damage-dealers).

An idea would be to have (buffed) Churchill retain decent penetration at close range (up to 15-ish?), and make Penetration fall off more rapidly for further ranges.

Other ideas that might help:
- Give Churchill 45 range (with or without veterancy).
This will allow it to threaten MGs/infantry and open way for infantry. It will also make Churchill a bit less kite-able, and might allow it to kite infantry, when supported. All other heavies have 45 range on their gun, and each of them have more potent guns (against both tanks/infantry). Moreover, Churchill is one of the slowest heavy tanks.
- Allow Churchill to toss artillery flares.
That way, trying to utilise Anvil benefits will not murder your popcap.

Its NOT anti infantry tank.

Crocodile is anti infantry.
Command P4 is anti infantry.

Is cromwell anti infantry to you?
Because this is the gun churchill uses.

Its generalist, no matter how you look at it.

The gun is dreadfully HORRIBLE armament for 180 fuel unit.

and look at that I said lower the price

This sounds like a great golden rule (a meatshield tank is not a meatshield tank if it evaporates quickly).

However, in order to keep it balanced, Churchill should be given a potato gun (so that the Panther doesn't die). The problem with potato-gun meatshields is that they become extremely unattractive to fire upon. (Thus, the enemy ignores them and jumps straight for the damage-dealers).

An idea would be to have (buffed) Churchill retain decent penetration at close range (up to 15-ish?), and make Penetration fall off more rapidly for further ranges.

Other ideas that might help:
- Give Churchill 45 range (with or without veterancy).
This will allow it to threaten MGs/infantry and open way for infantry. It will also make Churchill a bit less kite-able, and might allow it to kite infantry, when supported. All other heavies have 45 range on their gun, and each of them have more potent guns (against both tanks/infantry). Moreover, Churchill is one of the slowest heavy tanks.
- Allow Churchill to toss artillery flares.
That way, trying to utilise Anvil benefits will not murder your popcap.

the churchill will still be able to kill infantry if penetration was the only thing nerfed. there's also the tank grenade.

and churchill can still spot for the firefly.

and here's the mod I promised:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=690586596

tiger will still stomp the churchill with the new changes.

I've always liked the idea of making Churchills like a Command Tank Lite - have it give a slight defensive boost to nearby tanks like the Sherman Radio net ability or something along those lines. Could be an upgrade or new Vet... whatever needed to make it balanced.

the churchill will still be able to kill infantry if penetration was the only thing nerfed. there's also the tank grenade.

and churchill can still spot for the firefly.

and here's the mod I promised:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=690586596

tiger will still stomp the churchill with the new changes.

If that amount of durability is not considered too much for the price, then it seems very attractive to build in the Churchill even into the lategame.

320 armor (panther)
1280 hp (king tiger)
510 mp 185 fuel
16 pop (panther)

With the proposed changes, the new Churchill becomes:
- 20% more durable for guns with penetration 240 (Panther) or lower
- Durability remains unchanged for guns with penetration 292
- Becomes less durable for guns with penetration higher than that (Ele, JT).

My previous post was me running head a bit ahead and I was trying to think of what could be nerfed to make the Churchill more durable, basically.

Another thing that makes Churchill truly live in the shadow of its specialist counterparts is Veterancy. Croco and AVRE attain mobility improvements tied to veterancy faster (the Croco becomes flat-out faster than Anvil Churchill too!).

- Give Churchill 45 range (with or without veterancy).
This will allow it to threaten MGs/infantry and open way for infantry. It will also make Churchill a bit less kite-able, and might allow it to kite infantry, when supported. All other heavies have 45 range on their gun, and each of them have more potent guns (against both tanks/infantry). Moreover, Churchill is one of the slowest heavy tanks.

Isn't that what the smokescreen is for? Charge in front of the MG42 with the Churchill, pop the smoke and have infantry follow behind to throw Grenades? Not only that, the Churchill itself can throw grenades too. Just thought I'd throw that in here.

I'm against a range increase for the Churchill in any form. I would much rather give the Co-Axial Guns a AEC-level buff to give it's side hatch gunners more prominence.

Churchill's in a weird spot as a veterancy feeder that also gives no damns if its flanked since its low armour is compensated by its high health pool. It lacks proper firepower and mobility as well. It also costs quite a bit and for some reason is more population than a Panther.

I like the idea of a meatshield/shield but:

-Company of Heroes 2 AT lethality is high and in the late game double ATGs are common and will strip quickly HP from even the mightiest of tanks.

-Unless you can do something, you just eat shots. Churchill's not threatening enough with the grenade being fixed and no longer being a nuke and has a slow rate of fire.

-You can probably ignore the Churchill for the most part and shoot at the glasscannon units.

I'm wonder if giving the Churchill some sort of aura would be an idea, either passive or timed. Not to improve effectiveness of units, however. Instead, a de-buff that would hinder the enemy and weaken their effectiveness. It could maybe work on both vehicles and infantry and would force units to shoot the Churchill to get rid of the de-buff. This indirectly makes the Churchill harder to kill indirectly as well as nearby forces which it should be supporting.

I'm not sure what sort of de-buff we'd be talking about, that's my idea aside from a few suggestions of increasing armour so it can deflect, but reducing health.

1 fact: Shreck deflects give the unit XP for trying to penetrate.

That´s rather because the Comet is overperforming.

It could actually give a small bonus to infantry as it was an Infantry tank in the British doctrine. Something like +10 accuracy for nearby infantry could work.

''comet overperforming'' HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Churchill's in a weird spot as a veterancy feeder that also gives no damns if its flanked since its low armour is compensated by its high health pool. It lacks proper firepower and mobility as well. It also costs quite a bit and for some reason is more population than a Panther.

I like the idea of a meatshield/shield but:

-Company of Heroes 2 AT lethality is high and in the late game double ATGs are common and will strip quickly HP from even the mightiest of tanks.

-Unless you can do something, you just eat shots. Churchill's not threatening enough with the grenade being fixed and no longer being a nuke and has a slow rate of fire.

-You can probably ignore the Churchill for the most part and shoot at the glasscannon units.

I'm wonder if giving the Churchill some sort of aura would be an idea, either passive or timed. Not to improve effectiveness of units, however. Instead, a de-buff that would hinder the enemy and weaken their effectiveness. It could maybe work on both vehicles and infantry and would force units to shoot the Churchill to get rid of the de-buff. This indirectly makes the Churchill harder to kill indirectly as well as nearby forces which it should be supporting.

I'm not sure what sort of de-buff we'd be talking about, that's my idea aside from a few suggestions of increasing armour so it can deflect, but reducing health.

the churchill have access to grenades and smoke to make them useful beyond being a target. Of the three tanks in game currently with grenades, the churchill is the one best suited to make use of it.

the smoke should lose the movement debuff. It would be able to double as escape smoke.

Decent unit placement should mean that the churchill is the only unit in danger of being shot. Most axis player are not keen on exposing their own rear armor by driving past the churchill.

I like the idea to give it an area buff for nearby infantry. That could make his smoke ability useful at least.

Becaute atm, everyone use the churchill as a classic heavy tank, or don't use it at all because Comet is wayyyy beter. Give him a special gameplay with infantry could be interesting. I would put a survivability buff rather than an accuracy buff though. Like a bonus cover behind the Churchill, and a defense bonus nearby. Maybe also a RoF bonus, to not make it too defensive.

But atm it's not a viable tank, indeed.