SU-85; The Thread

this pile of dung will be banned soon hopefully ...

"Be gentlemen"

Im not a model example, but everytime you respond in kind to him, you run the same risk.

There is some levity for responding to particularly insulting posters towards you, with the same tone.
But in my extended experience, there comes a time that Mods invariably judge the "smarter" poster harder than the shitty one, because they expect more of you, than them.

Better to be quiet at times, at let them dig their own hole.

Believe me, once they are sufficiently butthurt, they will attack you no matter what you post, and by notnrewponding and continuing ONTOPIC, you prove yourself the more valuable poster.

If they gave the Germans a tank destroyer we wouldn't even have this thread...The Jagdpanther was a beast in vCoh,why is it missing?

If they gave the Germans a tank destroyer we wouldn't even have this thread...The Jagdpanther was a beast in vCoh,why is it missing?

Progression structure between the factions in CoH2 is in a alternating 0.5 "step-up" format, uptil t4 and Vet3, where it equalises.

Balance is very complex in CoH2, much moreso than in vCoH.

For example, Ost has no light tank, nor a dedicated non-doctrinal tank destroyer. Elephant, doctrinally, fills that capacity, as an "ultimate" tank destroyer (although ISU-52 is damn close, frankly, overall). This is compensated for on Ost with its linear tech path where it doest have to "choose", but can instead tech, at reduced cost compared to a building, instead of having to build each one in turn at full cost. (Although evn that is not so simple, since Ost must pay even for a tech level that it does not produce from, albeit at a reduced cost. Whereas Sovs tech investments are all building related, and hence all provide an actual unit output for that investment.)

I think on the relation between tank destroyers, its not so much an issue of SU85, as it is of Stug being a bit shit still. 2xStugs should be in a position to beat an SU85 with about 75% attrition to one Stug, in relatively optimal situations. Unfortunately, due to relative speed, rotation, range, frontal armor, penetration and damage, this simply doesnt happen for Stugs.

People have spoken about comparing units in a "vacuum", but this is a relevant comparison.

Surely you too can see how unit progression between the factions is in a 0.5 stepladder-type format?

I will demonstrate, roughly (im drunk)

M3 is countered by 0.5 step 222 Upgun.
222 Upgun is countered by 0.5 step T70.
Here there is a tier gap, owing to cost and tierage.
T34 counters the entire Ost builds to that point by 0.5.
PIV counters T34 by 0.5.
T34/85 counters PIV by 0.25
SU85 counters PIV by 0.5.
Panther counters SU85 by 0.5.
Here there is a tier and doctrine break from convention. Generally, at T4, both armor options are equivalent, albeit asymmetrically either better armored, or better at AI or AT.

Not a "perfect" system, and my expression of it wasnt perfect either, but I hope I communicated my general view of the rough framework of 0.5, half-step, alternating ladder-like progression nature between the two factions.

This is btw also represented in infantry and advanced support options.

Progression structure between the factions in CoH2 is in a alternating 0.5 "step-up" format, uptil t4 and Vet3, where it equalises.

Balance is very complex in CoH2, much moreso than in vCoH.

For example, Ost has no light tank, nor a dedicated non-doctrinal tank destroyer. Elephant, doctrinally, fills that capacity, as an "ultimate" tank destroyer (although ISU-52 is damn close, frankly, overall). This is compensated for on Ost with its linear tech path where it doest have to "choose", but can instead tech, at reduced cost compared to a building, instead of having to build each one in turn at full cost. (Although evn that is not so simple, since Ost must pay even for a tech level that it does not produce from, albeit at a reduced cost. Whereas Sovs tech investments are all building related, and hence all provide an actual unit output for that investment.)

I think on the relation between tank destroyers, its not so much an issue of SU85, as it is of Stug being a bit shit still. 2xStugs should be in a position to beat an SU85 with about 75% attrition to one Stug, in relatively optimal situations. Unfortunately, due to relative speed, rotation, range, frontal armor, penetration and damage, this simply doesnt happen for Stugs.

People have spoken about comparing units in a "vacuum", but this is a relevant comparison.

Surely you too can see how unit progression between the factions is in a 0.5 stepladder-type format?

I will demonstrate, roughly (im drunk)

M3 is countered by 0.5 step 222 Upgun.
222 Upgun is countered by 0.5 step T70.
Here there is a tier gap, owing to cost and tierage.
T34 counters the entire Ost builds to that point by 0.5.
PIV counters T34 by 0.5.
T34/85 counters PIV by 0.25
SU85 counters PIV by 0.5.
Panther counters SU85 by 0.5.
Here there is a tier and doctrine break from convention. Generally, at T4, both armor options are equivalent, albeit asymmetrically either better armored, or better at AI or AT.

Not a "perfect" system, and my expression of it wasnt perfect either, but I hope I communicated my general view of the rough framework of 0.5, half-step, alternating ladder-like progression nature between the two factions.

This is btw also represented in infantry and advanced support options.

Interesting info,they should've made the units more alike thus resolving balance issues,why does a faction have something that the other one hasn't...this wasn't even the case
Ex : Germans Panzer 2 LIGHT TANKS or Soviet Ba-64 ARMOURED CAR(again,why is this missing,it was their primary reconnaisance vehicle) ,Wespe self propelled gun and so on...

These are just my perceptions and deductions, joker.

Im not speaking for the Devs, but I stringly believe this kind of "0.5 alternating ladder steo between the factions" design has a lot of evidence to support it.

Way I see it, is its a way to breakaway from the eventually concreted metastructure of vCoH.

They designed the factions so that whatever you build, the opposing faction can, at 0.5 cost, counter that. It creates a structured and measured progression with a few interesting deviances afforded by Doctrines, Bulletins and Vet abilities (if you sre lucky) to keep it lively and dynamic.

Im too drunk atm to run through then 0.5 progressions overall, but Ill get bwck to itmeventuqlly. Its not "perfect", but close enough to evud3nce itself, and frankly, it makes a lot of sense. Its apparent in infantry, support (laterally), light vehicles, medium tanks and indire t fire . T4 is an equaliser.

But I liked the concreted metastructure of vCoh

YOU SHOULD ALWAYS SUPPORT YOUR TANKS WITH INFANTRY.

and this is exactly why your suggestion of "use blitzkrieg and charge head on" doesnt work in practice. 1 guard hidden by that su85 and you just lost a vet p4. by the way, check out the top change on the new patch notes.

SU-85
• Acceleration from 2.4 to 2.1
• Rotation from 20 to 18
• Max speed from 5.3 to 4.8

@wooof man, ima shittin' bricks. for real

dis gonna be GOOOD!

theres a stream about the patch just like last time. i think its in a few minutes.

http://www.twitch.tv/relicentertainment

ooh didnt realize there was already a thread announcing it here.

and this is exactly why your suggestion of "use blitzkrieg and charge head on" doesnt work in practice. 1 guard hidden by that su85 and you just lost a vet p4. by the way, check out the top change on the new patch notes.

SU-85
• Acceleration from 2.4 to 2.1
• Rotation from 20 to 18
• Max speed from 5.3 to 4.8

FINALLY

@wooof man, ima shittin' bricks. for real

dis gonna be GOOOD!

You don't even actually play the game, so I'm not sure why you'd even care so much....

The extent of your butthurt is getting to be a bit embarassing.

Kindly, please, stop fucking talking to me.

The extent of your butthurt is getting to be a bit embarassing.

Kindly, please, stop fucking talking to me.

Why would I be butt hurt? It's not like I lost to you, cause you like don't actually play the game.... remember?

Why would I be butt hurt? It's not like I lost to you, cause you like don't actually play the game.... remember?

Well considering you play soviets only, I'd hardly talk about playing the game.

Finally SU85 will be balanced. still a good unit but requires some protection.

Well considering you play soviets only, I'd hardly talk about playing the game.

Actually I don't, I have over 100 games with Germans, which is more then (1)

I am rather pleased with the changes. They didn't brake the unit completely.
It's now easier to charge and perform a flanking maneuver but you still need to use your brain to do so.
They have nerfed rotation speed (you've asked for it Nullist ) and acceleration. Good and fair changes I think.

Changes are very welcome ... It now takes a little bit of brain to use the su85 and flanking one is much more rewarding.

At least now its possible to chase the warp speed reversing 85.

its overnerfed. its turning speed. and its reverse speed. makes it unable to escape i faced 2 tigers last match and i could not run away from them. they just had to click me i had to drive like a pro just to get them to safety.

this was me during the whole match.



SEMOIS IS ON FIREE!

As some german players will learn to play with mgs, soviet players will try to backup their SU85's


As long as the mgs have been nerfed so that can be called a support weapon, i'm okay with it.