SU-85; The Thread

The point was to show how ridiculous the buff is the Su-85 gets at vet 2. It´s not only a super strong vehicle that excels in speed, range of the gun, vision range, price. No, it also get´s superb veterancy bonuses. That´s for me the reason to almost never ever build StuGs. You FEED VET to the Su-85 and you can´t flank it. Hell, you can barely even shoot back at it if it reverses.

I agreed that the u85 shouldn't 2 shot stugs at vet 2 because that's just silly. Every unit in the game gets incredible veterancy bonuses not just the su85. Have you seen what a vetted scout car does to a t34? An upgunned vet 3 scout car rips though t34s like they're made of paper. I don't know if relic considered the balance of unit based on it's veterancy, but I remember reading somewhere on the official forums that unit abilities like ram or the mg42 pintle mounted machine guns aren't considered when it comes to the unit cost/balance (so I would think veterancy isn't considered either).

How is this thread not dead lol

How is this thread not dead lol

because the issue hasnt been patched and resolved yet

A resolution has been promised, it's only a matter of time. Everybody chill.

Holy shit. A positive post from Gayner.

Good job, dude. I mean it. Much prefered.

Marcus posted something about speed/acceleration change to SU85.

As a soviet player i can see why the germans feel it is OP'd

I think the turning speed is probably most critical.
if 2 p4's flank at 90 degrees they should take down 2 su86's

as it stands two p4's can come in 180deg out, loose 1 p4, kill one su, then be forced away by the remaining, now vet 2 su86.

while i think it would be fair for 2 su86's to take down 3 or 4 p4's in a frontal assault (if they had a spotter and or the *vet one* cone sight ability).
Or win vs p5 / probably win vs 2 p4's frontal.

If they are flanked at 180 deg, 2 su's should go down to 1 p4. Or at least one definite and one 50/50.

I think half the problem is that it is pretty easy to just roll the su86's forward then back and repair, where to counter them requires skill and often some luck.

So:

Reduce reverse speed a bit.

Reduce turning speed a bit.

Reduce effectiveness against infantry a fraction. turning speed reduction would likely achieve this.

Make the cone sight a vet one timed ability.

Well said Wolf. I think your post sums up exactly what needs to be changed, and why. All these "Soviet Only Players" saying you just have to flank them when in reality all they have to do is reverse and change the facing direction at the same time to win the engagement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7O0KEqStHM

Not my video, but it shows the problem quite well.

- Problem is not only the range and reverse speed of the Su-85
- At vet 2 it 2shots StuGs making those not viable at all

+1

this thing is a beast

I just lost a game where I lost 3 panzer IV's to a single SU85 and I had panzer tactician, I also had 2 AT guns deployed but the quick speed of the SU just negated it totally. I hope they nerf the armor of the SU85 so that when we do close the gap on the tank destroyer it is shredded by a few rounds. Or do people think speed reduction would be better? or a bit of both?

The problem with the SU85 is that it's too map dependent on long firing lanes. On certain maps, they are far stronger than on other maps.

They are quite OP on some maps, but balanced on other maps.

if you are capable of winning competence ostheer player as soviet without T4~ in teamed game like 2v2, please post your replay~

The point was to show how ridiculous the buff is the Su-85 gets at vet 2. It´s not only a super strong vehicle that excels in speed, range of the gun, vision range, price. No, it also get´s superb veterancy bonuses. That´s for me the reason to almost never ever build StuGs. You FEED VET to the Su-85 and you can´t flank it. Hell, you can barely even shoot back at it if it reverses.

stugs would be fine if they just had the same range as the su85. they get damage reduction buff at vet 2 which is also very handy, and the shock crew at vet 1. Problem is the su85 snipes them before they can hit back. Now im not saying stugs should "counter" su-85's but to make an example battle:

lets take 3 stugs(285 fuel total) vs 2 su85's(230 fuel total).
(not taking teching fuel into account)

in a "vacuum environment", this should result in a close fight imo, slightly favouring the stugs(55 more fuel. again not sure what teching fuel prices add up to).

SU85 cone sight is stupid and should just be removed/reduced/moved to vet 1/made to cost munitions and be timed.

The reasoning behind comparing stug vs su85 is that both are medium tank hunters, and should perform similiarly at least in game. Now i know that germans also get panthers and the su85 is the russians' non-doctrinal answer to panthers, but su85 shouldnt counter ALL german armor. Currently SU85 is russians' counter to german t3, t4, and even tigers. Only the elefant reliably counters su85. Remember that russians can also counter panthers and tigers with t34 ram+zis.

At the moment the german player needs superior micro skill to be able to deal with su85's and on some maps (pripyat especially) it is a bitch to flank su85's.

I find the only way i win vs su85 is to just skip all tanks and go for elefant, but its not really a fun way to play and being forced to play like this by one non-doctrinal unit that gets built nearly every game is dumb.

We will have to see how the changes in the next patch affects everything.

any idea when our next patch will hit?

any idea when our next patch will hit?

"Watch Relic's Twitch Stream tomorrow at 1:00 PM PDT as Designer Peter Qumsieh shows off the next balance update"

more informations tomorrow

so is this thing balanced now? I don't think so. its armor is too good or something, not sure.

It's better since the patch, but should maybe cost a little more, maybe somewhere in between P4 and Panther. I'd still much rather have an SU85 than a P4, and they cost the same.

SU-85 definitely needs a nerf. Every game feels like an SU-85 spamfest.

It's better since the patch, but should maybe cost a little more, maybe somewhere in between P4 and Panther. I'd still much rather have an SU85 than a P4, and they cost the same.

I'm not sure about you guys, but post-patch, doesn't it still feel a bit like the safest option is just to tech straight for the SU-85, when it comes to your anti-armour needs?

The t-34 is a great unit these days, I think, but.. TheSu85 is just so much better. Sure, I can get by on t-34s, but, there is a point when I need my su85 just for simplicity's sake, where the Tiger has come out, or something else heavy, and I want a bit more kick.

Yeah, like I said, I can get by on t-34s, but, to have an effective t-34 force in the later stages, you need quite a few of them, and because you've made quite of few of them, you're not really able to spare the fuel to go for the T4 tech, wait all that time for the building to finish and -then- wait for more fuel, and -then- wait for the first SU to build. It just feels that for the most part, if I've teched for T-34s, that if I don't stick with them, then there's going to be a huge lull in my available crushing low-end tank-force, and that if I want to tech swiftly to T4, that I need to skimp on the T-34s, which subsequently makes them a waste of time.

It just ends up being that I skimped on t-34s, to get out my T4, and then because I actually bothered with T3, and a few T-34s in the first place, that my SU force ends up lacking, and I'm just sat there wondering why I bothered.

This to me, seems like one of two things. The t-34 isn't good enough, or the SU85 is just -too- good. And I don't think it's the former!

When I ever consider going for T-34s, is because I'm thinking "Great, I want mobility, and to go circles around those bastard nazi-bastards 'til they just mush!" but, the SU-85 is already really quite mobile, and doesn't suffer any more than a T-34 (or, hugely, at least) from being caught out of position by a faust, or an enemy tank.

It should feel like, if I want an Su-85, it's because I really want the bloody job done, but sacrifice mobility for it, but, if I'm feeling up to the challenge, I can use a t-34's mobilitiy to win over the fights with a more mixed force at its side.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the SU-85 -must- be more vulnerable to flanking. It needs to turn slower. Maybe it needs to move slower too, but I could happily accept at this point if it simply received a hefty adjustment to it's acceleration + deceleration speeds. Things have certainly improved, and I'm no longer just pressing the F-key, activating focused-sight and letting the tank become it's own super-entity that I can let do it's own thing.

It's still suffering from being just a little too versatile, when I don't believe it should be.

T3 is viable now, and works very well esp vs the german heavy infantry builds, but T4 is still more viable because SU85 is still a touch too strong and kats/su-76 can deal with infantry.

It's still pretty OP and broken. It might affect 1v1s less, but team games are still a total SUfest. It still denies every single German tank from the battlefield (aside from the Elephant) at the price of a P4. I keep seeing team games being won the moment the Russian side starts pumping these things out - and I see this both when I play as German or Soviet.

Also, there is still what I consider the broken behavior of it sniping infantry and, the worst, pak guns. I understand that balance is being done incrementally, from early to late-game, but I think Relic should hurry up on a solution for this. Team matches are getting dull and boring, from either side.