No. Please do check out www.steampowered.com and check out Borderlands, Sins of a Solar Empire, Civilization or any other big title. Many of them have DLC stuff added to them to keep the game alive to be honest it's alot better they keep the games alive that way than to let the game decay due to lack of funds to better it further.
I'm looking, and I see that Sins of a Solar Empire has two stand-alone versions and one DLC.
Civilisation, yes, has abundance of DLC. I made the mistake of thinking it had only a few, but that's simply because I've never played the game. From what I have read of those DLCs, it seems that even these DLCs hold a far greater value than the, somehow, more expensive commanders of CoH2. Doesn't this only go to show how, at the very least, over-priced these DLCs are? Seems like whole new factions, zones, tiles and other features that cost substantially less than Case Blue, which was not all that expansive.
Though, aren't these two games considered to be more of a single-player experience, where as CoH2 is trying to appeal to the more competitive side of the RTS scene? A difference like that should make a fundamental difference in the business models you use, no doubt.
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As a further edit, I did a rough count of all the DLC available for CoH2, compared to those two games with a substanitally longer life than coH2:
Sins: 1 DLC
Civ: 13 DLC
CoH2: 62 (got distracted and lost count along the way, but you get the idea! )
What sort of message do you think that sends new customers, 3 months down the line after a game is out? Not to mention whispers of P2W that are blowing in the breeze. Maybe someone would care to do the maths on how often it is that Relic appear to be grabbing at our money, while games like Civ that were released just over 3 years ago, are releasing better DLC, for way less.
The core of this type of business model escapes your notion. The net revenue from an unknown number of these DLC's over an indefinite period of time can potentially be greater than the net revenue of the game itself. While this is applied, new customers can be "hooked" by all types of discount sales of CoH2.
Certainly, and I haven't claimed to know of such, all I've done is put forward my opinion on the situation, and where I stand on it. It's a zealous drive, really, and I can't make any denial of that, where I hope people will see and agree with what I have to say, and make a judgement against this model, because, the customer shouldn't care how well the business is doing beyond whether or not it's sustainable for them. When I play this game, I don't do it, like what I will assume is the majority of the player-base, to see that Relic does well, but because I want to play a fun game. And it stopped being fun when I had to pay for content that I, and hopefully many others, in a greater proportion, feel we should have already have had, or get for free.
These DLC sales are independent of the efforts to acquire new customers.
Which I disagree with, because if we assume that what I say is what many others have to say, and they're just as vocal about it as me, then it will stifle new flows of customers who will just avoid the game, because it's being branded as "P2W". Whether or not P2W is entirely true, is debatable, but that is what it's being branded as, and there's a reason no game wants to be given that label.
I do believe fully that DLC, of the likes it is here, will affect new players' choice ot buy the game. I'm sure it gets concerning for them, now, when they see the following:
Key Features
Award Winning Franchise – Sequel to the highest rated strategy game of all time returns with an innovative warfare experience that will redefine the Strategy genre once more
Essence 3.0 Engine – Cutting-edge technology that increases the graphical quality and accuracy of deadly combat with the unprecedented TrueSight™ system and ultrarealistic ColdTech™ dynamic weather that changes strategic warfare forever
Blood and Snow – Take command of the iconic Red Army on the Eastern Front and repel the Enemy invaders in this Battle of the Ideologies
Tactical Warfare – Develop and utilize your new Commander Abilities and experience the up-close moment-to-moment brutality of frontline warfare through new Dynamic Battle Tactics
Intense Online Combat – Featuring the great competitive and co-operative multiplayer that fans have grown to expect from this high-quality and critically acclaimed franchise
What do you think the impression is? That is a huge page of content - and that's just the commanders.
They will buy the game, and have to be charged even more, for what are key features of the game - aka. fundamental content that is supposed to be the game's selling-point. You're not supposed to literally sell the selling point. The selling point is meant to be a part of the game you bought, which makes people buy the game first-off.
can you imagine having to pay for further implementations of the other "Key Features"? It would just be insane, and I can't see why they've done it.
Right, because I am a customer, and that is who the game is made for. The method only works on F2P models, who even know that you don't make the content exclusively available for cash. No one likes anything that stinks of P2W.
If they want to follow that model, then I don't see why I we should have already bought the game.
I haven't made any judgement about any figures, and haven't said that no one is buying it and other sensationalised nonsense. All I've done is put forward my opinion on it. I stand by the notion that more customers = more money, because it does. you can get way more money out of the huge number of potential players, than you can ever out of a small, already existing playerbase who clearly aren't happy about paying for this content.
A great deal may have reluctantly bought it this time, but I certainly doubt they'll buy wave 2 - and it'll be likely for the reasons I already stated. But we'll see.
You are entitled to your opinion but you received the full game on the release day. If Relic decide to release more content at a small cost then it's their decision. You are free to leave whenever you like. Hating a company because they want to make a profit is just good energy wasted because they will never provide you with free stuff.
EVE online, a great game btw, always brags about the free expansions they provide for their players but they have a monthly subscription fee.
Would you like COH to be free but at a monthly cost?
One way or the other, Relic needs to pay the bills and this is one way to do it, they just chose the business model where they add DLC to the FULL game. Something that's pretty common these days actually.
Take Borderlands for example, great game as well, DLC added on a regular basis, nobody is complaining about that. It's a modern business model.
The only sorts of games that run well on subscriptions, which I take as proof from the success of it only deriving from MMOs. Which is fine, I like subscriptions on MMOs, since there is often a great cost to games like that.
Perhaps CoH should have been free, and followed the standard F2P models, which are proven to work. I'd be fine with that, I just don't see why I should have to pay for a game with a whole bunch of problems, such as the input lag, and the inexplicable player-lag which hasn't been ironed out before they resorted to charging us for this 'content'. I don't believe that what we bought was the full-game, but like many games do these days, where you invest in a less-stable version of the game, which gets improved many months later. That's super-common these days, and that's not something I have a problem with. I just see what's happening and it doesn't seem like additional content, but instead a way to make a quick buck out of the loyal player base.
What isn't common these days, is charging a steep price for a triple-A game, releasing it in a questionable state, adding two patches and what? The work is done - are they dusting off their hands, patting each other on the back saying "good job"? I doubt it. They know work needs to be done, and i have no doubt that they'll get it done, but this model is not a proven success. It's not something I've even ever encountered before - and of course I have a problem with it.
Borderlands definitely did well, but they also went full out on the merchandising, which brings them in a -huge- amount of money. Of course, the difference between CoH2 and Borderlands is really quite big, and Borderlands is very much a single-player game, with the co-op being as much as it gets in multiplayer. There's no competitive angle, and there's no advantage to buying the new heroes, or the expansions. That is simply a choice to expand the game, and while a fine line between that, and what's happening here, you just need to remember that they are fundamentally different games, and Borderlands has been doing what nearly every single-player game has been doing for a long time, while coH2 is doing something absolute backwards, and unprecedented to my eyes.
No, I don't know what you mean. You were both being as petty as each other, only issue is that at least Nullist was being positively more constructive than you.
now, about choice, you're right. We're not forced, but once again, when I paid for this game, I expected a full game, because that's what most other games do when I pay such a large premium for them - the full game. The choice I see these days, is not whether I'd like to gain full-access to the game, like I already ought to, but whether or not I want to play the game. And that means I won't be getting friends to buy this game any more. With a game that is really not that well known, or only vaguely, it relies on the opinions of its playerbase, and right now, the opinion is "P2W". that's not good for business.
If the company needs to pay its bills, and whatever other else it is you think, then they will need new customers. Not bleeding the old ones dry.
Now, in regards to Starcraft - it wasn't randomly patched. It was very well patched and had absolute balance, hence why it became so acclaimed, and even made it to a famous e-sports scene in S. Korea. Not because they made people buy new units every 3 months.
Relic already said that their sales from CoH2 are doing really quite well.
But, instead of nitpicking at other remarks, does anyone who opposes the notion here, like to quit skimming past the thoughtful reply I put here earlier, instead of resorting to using their well-honed pedantry to 'lol' at others because 'theymadbro'
here, I'll even paste it here again incase you missed it, because it's unbelievable that some of the more vocal of you would rather tell someone else how poor they are, and that they're SO much better than anyone else who has an opinion other than theirs, because they're super-rich and have hot girlfriends, and they own super-good businesses, shiny cars and all other sorts of shit that I failed to give a fuck about the very first time I read them. It's irrelevant and I don't need to read it again, and again, and again, and again.
If you want reasons to your pathetically posed questions and insults, then take a deep breath, calm yourself, and read what I wrote. And before you explode in a rage over something truly trivial, and somehow conclude that it'll be a great idea to spew out more of the childish shit, then simply close the website, and find something else to do:
I can't believe you people. You're seriously complaining about having to pay $12 for FOUR BRAND NEW commanders and units? They've been out for a few days and people are screaming 'P2W!!!!'. If it was seriously that bad, you would cough up $12 which is less than lunch where I live and get these 'super uber OP commanders who win every game'. But you won't because you know that aren't that 'OP' and all you're doing is complaining like a bunch of children who think you're entitled to everything for free.
This has very little to do with P2W. I'm confident that as time goes along, these things will be balanced - Relic have been great at sorting out balance so far, and I've loved every patch that came out since. At no point do I ever think that a guy like me, who will only ever have the very few original commanders, will stand absolutely no chance in the greater metagame. On the contrary though, if they were insanely OP, doesn't mean I'm going to buy them. It means I'd stop playing until I was sure the balance was fixed. I'm not of the insane mindset where I'll liberally throw my money out at anything so long as it improves my game - regardless of whether it even holds that value.
How do you propose Relic and SEGA continue making their money from CoH2? You think they make games for the fun of it? Why would they continue to patch the game, keep it balanced, fix bugs, continue making new maps, new commanders and new units, if they aren't making any money from the game? That means they are literally working for FREE.
They wouldn't be working for free. You see, how this works for other games, is that they understand one thing: There are always more customers. Take a look at how many gamers regular Steam, for example, and you could consider a good portion of those to be potential buyers. That's a lot of money. If you want to make more money, then get new customers. Don't dime your old ones; This is even worse of an idea when the community isn't as large as other known RTS'. Get a reputation as a solid game, with good support - Which is expected these days, I'm afraid. This isn't the early 90s where the lack of constant internet connectivity meant updating games just wasn't viable, and so it wasn't done. If they carry on like this, they could well doom their own game, because people like me, since Case Blue, have had nothing nice to say about their money-grabbing approach.
Now, how about they make skins cheaper? add infantry skins, on top of that. Add more skins. Add skin-packs for entire armies, or just buy individual skins for unit classes if we wanted. Customisation is a huge thing, and while some of us won't go crazy on the skins, others will. Then there'd be those of us who would buy some every now and then just to support the Company.
They shouldn't really be selling faceplates, but make them drop on small chance at the end of games, or maybe each month, set a series of secret challenges for players to achieve, and at the end of the month, bring in a few new ones. Things like this will bolster the community, and offer an extra facet of addictive play for people. this would very well attract new customers. And if you remember the formula, More Customers = More Money, then you'll realise that this would be good.
You can't expect a company to continuing give you updates and new features for free. You paid for a game with a campaign and multiplayer functionality and everything else the game promised when you purchased it - you get that. You did not pay for these new commanders. You did not even pay for the new maps (which they gave for free).
I can expect it. Furthermore, I was promised a game rich in variety, full of all these different commanders who alter my tactics each time. I've brought the game, and you know what? It's conscript spam, into T-70s, a few T-34s and finishing off with Su-85s. Every. Time. I didn't get variety when I bought this game, instead, all I got was the platform to add variety to. And at what very well seems to be like an endless cost, as more Commanders get released. And I'm sure relic managed to convince Sega that dividing their community by charging for maps would be even more detrimental than what they've done with the commanders.
I am actually more than happy to pay for these new commanders because I want relic to continue to release new commanders, new units, new maps and keep the game patched. If you continue to complain about this bullshit you will literally break down this game to the point that it becomes dead and deserted. Game developers simply cannot continue to support a game and continue to enhance it if they are making a loss on it (people do not work for free, as I am sure the developers at Relic do not).
I'm happy to pay for new units too. But, It would have to be in an expansion, for me. Expansions are where I spend a definite amount of money, and receive a definite amount of content. this model, I have no idea how much I might need to spend on this game in the next year - or worse, the next five years of which they've stated that they'll be committing to the game. Can you answer me that? No, and I shouldn't be asking for it in the first place, when I already paid for this game. I shouldn't have to be paying for what is really, necessary content.
Game developers have previously made their money through expansions and it is a TERRIBLE idea. What ends up happening is - New expansion comes out - new factions, new maps, new campaign etc. Game balance complete fucked. Oh well, lets wait it out for a new expansion. And the cycle continues.
I don't remember it quite like this. And i believe releasing expansions to games was a pretty great way to make money. It's sort of why games still do it. It's like the sequel, but needing less manpower. Where you get the impression that releasing expansions was a terrible idea, I don't know. Warcraft 3 did excellently from it, for example. Or the original Starcraft. That game had good balance, and support. And you know what? I didn't have to pay for premium fees, new maps, or the support it got. do you know why these games did well? because they, or their predecessor, made a -very- good game, where you didn't have to pay extra for your mundane copy, vanilla-copy, to become great, with added units, or balances. Te sequels follow this pattern, a clearly successful one, and it brought in new customers, it earned the game critical acclaim, and then more people bought it, and more money was earned. So long a a game continues to be great, and not reeking of money-grabbing hustling, then a game will do excellently. Anyone who now buys this game, and sees that variety is lacking, cannot sit there and say to their friends "yeah, but just buy it any wya. they'll be releasing new content that'll make this what it should be!", instead., they'll think "fuck it", and play something else, and warn their friends that they won't be able to enjoy the game to its fullest, without paying hell of a lot more. That definitely doesn't earn you new customers.
Now, once broadband came about, a great deal of games would update their games post-release. Not to the extent we expect now-a-days, but such is what the customer wants, and such is what the game developers did. That was until someone decided to start charging for it.
Do you want this to happen to CoH2? I sure as hell don't. So either scrape together the $12 you have in the ashtray in your car or shut the hell up.
I refuse to support a company who doesn't see me as their avid supporter, and fan, but instead has dollar signs in their eyes. they won't get even a penny, so long as they continue with this incredibly greedy approach. And I don't care if it causes the Company that I loved up until a few days ago to go bust. I want a business model like this to fail, because if it doesn't, then it will only mean other games will start to do it, too. And that would be bad. Can you imagine how poor you'd be if you had to dish out such huge charges for every game you actively play?
No one owes you anything. Relic have already given us heaps of free shit and it's the first thing they release that requires the smallest bit of money and you can't handle it. Grow up.
Growing up has very little to do with it, and your attitude has no consideration of what are very real, and very well voiced (aide from certain rages) concerns from people who only speak up because they love the game, and Relic just as much as you do. You are a fool if you think this content is worth the money they charge, and even more a fool when you believe that you have the upper ground, just because you're, what, rich enough, stupid enough, to pay for, it seems, whatever they throw at you. If they created DLC with lobbies in it, would you buy it? I mean, it's a feature that improves the game to a great extent, and your money would be supporting the Company. But, hold on, wait. that should already be in the game for free. Just like all the units, and the Commanders that should've come with the game when I already bought it.
This is not a MOBA, or a MMO, and you can't just charge for core content. But, hell, even then games like LoL don't make heroes inaccessible without in-game currency, and from what I've heard, what with rewards for first-wins-of-the-day, and other daily achievements, getting the heroes you want isn't that hard. Of course, that game is free to play, so I don't expect Relic to come out with a special currency called Nazi-Gold, and we start earning that for every game we win - just to unlock content we ought to already have.
Even Guild Wars 2, which you pay to play, doesn't do something as stupid as charge you for core content, such as weapons, dungeons, new zones. And it doesn't even have subscription charges. And you can still by all the fluffy items, like town clothes and other pointless items, with in-game gold. Guild Wars 2 is doing great.
Any sensible game knows that being labelled "P2W" is deadly, and whether or not it's entirely accurately applied to coH2, this is what it is being labelled as - because it's pretty damned close.
i do mind buying these commanders, because if i want to have all of them, i have to spend another 12 bucks just for these new abilities so i can have the feeling i'm playing the "full game" and not just a part of it. i think its a shame to screw your own community over like that. not saying the game isn't fun and i will probably continue playing the game, for now...
I feel pretty much the exact same way. this is a great game, and at every chance I've had prior to this fiasco, I was spouting off to anyone who would listen about how it's already so good.
Now, though ,I'll keep playing until I get bored, and to feel that I'm missing out from the full game, in its entire glory, dampens my spirits and excitement for the game. I no longer have been encouraging people to buy the game, but actually warning them, now, and while, certainly, my few friends won't make a difference, I'm sure there are plenty more people out there who are doing much the same
you could have played the beta for free for a long time before ever paying a cent.
I could've, but I didn't. Unfortunately I didn't even know of the beta, and gave up hopes of seeing the game after I got wind of a rumour that after buyout from Sega, that the game wasn't being continued, so I simply stopped looking out for it.
I simply didn't expect to have to fork out for a game, and then continue to fork out for it.
I just absolutely hate that I can't be certain how much money I'll end up spending in the end. Really, how much will I have to spend to simply play the game to it's intended-potential, as is advertised and made-out? There's no answer for that, and with a five-year commitment plan they have for the game, and it being barely past the first few months of release, I forsee a great expense needed.
Not to mention how disappointing the balance changes were this month. It's as if all the time was spent on dealing with throwing out this DLC, instead of sorting out integral balance, or even that command-input lag. Or perhaps, they'll just release some DLC to fix that? The Ostheer Lightning Input Commander, perhaps?
1. Post after post blanket asserting that the new commanders are P2W, yet I see no replays or balance threads addressing any of them.
There is no way that, in the ~18hrs the new patch has been out, the meta game has changed enough to determine how OP the new commanders are. In other words: less QQ, more pewpew, please.
2. Even if they are OP, it does not follow that Relic deliberately made them so to be able to charge more. It could be speculated that they erred on the side of OP when they created them, but that is a common balancing strategy and not necessarily nefarious.
3. They will be changed towards better balance in time just like the preexisting commanders and every other unit and ability in the game.
My issue isn't balance, or that the commanders are strictly P2W. P2W is just a hyperbole of the problem here. P2W is just the tagline to get your attention of the real problem - the principal of being hustled like this. I needn't repeat what I said, or what others have said - but most of what has been said has been nothing to do with what is, or isn't OP. New stuff is released; it's OP. That's cardinal. Some have a problem with how often this might shake up balance (too often?), those like me have a problem with being shelled in this manner.
Could you specify a bit how this is not a game you paid for? It's great CoH which needs just a bit patching.
Not really sure have you been playing games recently. Most games does this nowadays? It's not that rare anymore. Metro Last Light released DLC at the same day that the game was released which contained an OPTION to game. One more difficulty to the game to be specific. That was included in CE, that I would count as rip off.
One of the key features of CoH2 is the Commander system. It's often a point of selling for them - buy CoH2 so you can play the Soviets, or Ostheer exactly your way. Except, what i actually get is, I'm buying CoH2, so I can then buy the selling-point of the game, to play the game as the game was made out to be.
But, I don't see what Metro Last Light did as very agreeable, either, but single-player content works a lot differently. I don't play SP games all that often these days, but I when I did, I was always happy to buy new content for it, so long as it was worth it, of course. So, new campaigns, expansions and the sort. I'll gladly buy expansions for my MP experience, too, if I deem it to be worth it. £1.99 for one commander that should already be available to me is not worth it. It's a tremendous rip-off.
I didn't even pre-order, or buy CE - and this is still, without a single doubt, not cool. And they know that if I want to enjoy the game it was meant to be played, that I will inevitably have to buy these commanders. I won't, because I have alternative games to play, and will just move on once I'm bored of this great game. And that's what, whoever behind this, made the mistake of considering when this was implemented
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