P2W whine thread.

What am I reading?

But, instead of nitpicking at other remarks, does anyone who opposes the notion here, like to quit skimming past the thoughtful reply I put here earlier, instead of resorting to using their well-honed pedantry to 'lol' at others because 'theymadbro'

here, I'll even paste it here again incase you missed it, because it's unbelievable that some of the more vocal of you would rather tell someone else how poor they are, and that they're SO much better than anyone else who has an opinion other than theirs, because they're super-rich and have hot girlfriends, and they own super-good businesses, shiny cars and all other sorts of shit that I failed to give a fuck about the very first time I read them. It's irrelevant and I don't need to read it again, and again, and again, and again.


If you want reasons to your pathetically posed questions and insults, then take a deep breath, calm yourself, and read what I wrote. And before you explode in a rage over something truly trivial, and somehow conclude that it'll be a great idea to spew out more of the childish shit, then simply close the website, and find something else to do:

Show Spoiler

E-Penis and RL-Penis comparison, come on guys how old are you stop that

Look at your original post:



To that I replied:



Because
A) NOBODY HAS SAID THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT.
B) We don't know where the DLC money goes.

To that you reply with personal insults:


Who do you think you are kidding with your:


When YOU are the angry jackass who came out with that shit in the first place.

You fucking lost it, flipped out and started getting personal when I pointed out to you that:
A) Nobody has claimed they can't afford the DLC, as if that was fucking relevant anyways.
B) We don't know where the DLC money goes. Whether its directly to funding Relic development or softer toiletpaper for Sega's CEO, we simply don't know.

You utterly lost it at that point and began with personal insults.
I suspect you have rage issues IRL as well, thats why I ask if you beat your GF too, cos from my perspective, it would certainly fit the profile I'm getting off you.

My anger towards you is coming from the other thread where I didn't even bother to reply because I didn't feel like spending the energy required to bust your ass on the interwebs but you just HAD to reply once again with your learn to read bs.

You need to learn to read between the lines, alot of people who whine about certain things whine because they can't afford it. People whine about all kinds of things and the bottom line is they usually don't want to spend more money than they have to.

I on the other hand love DLC because if we look back on games like oh.. Starcraft 1 for example. One expansion was provided and some random balance patches. NOTHING else.

Would you like that to happen to COH? They release the game, one expansion, nothing else.

I prefer the DLC model every day of the week. It keeps the game alive. You can't expect to pay ONCE and then get everything for free because they have bills and salaries to pay just like any other company. It's just sad that there's tons of people who don't get that logic.

Bottom line is CHOICE.

You can choose to not buy ANY DLC. Nobody is forcing you.

I'm still using one of the basic doctrines and I'm winning 90% of my games even though I have the DCE and have access to all the premium commanders.

You don't need the DLC to win, that's why I don't care about DLC. There will always be balance issues and map issues such as Rostov where one faction has a smaller starting area but jeez it's a game man, not the end of the world. Shave off that stache man, it's weighing you down.

E-Penis and RL-Penis comparison, come on guys how old are you stop that

Look, he was bragging about how uber his alpha males was and how insanely hot he is IRL and that I would pale in comparison to his awesomeness.

He had to be brought back to earth if you know what I mean.

Nobody has whined because they cant afford it.
Not one single person.

Trying to attack people AND their opinions on the DLC, based on the false premise that "they can't afford it", which NOBODY has said, is flat out fallacious and wrong.

You can't disregard or disqualify peoples comments and opinions about the DLC by accusing them of "not being able to afford it", when they HAVE NEVER EVEN SAID SO.

Its mind boggling where the hell you "read this between the lines".
It isn't there. There is no evidence for it. Its all in your own fucking head, and your own internal bigoted interpretation of what you FEEL people are saying.

Nobody has said they cant afford the DLC.
Nobody has said the DLC is problematic, because they "can't afford it".
Where you got that idea into your head, is your own problem between you and your imagination.
It certainly didnt happen objectively here on the boards.

On the personal level of "being brought down to earth", encountering someone as bigoted as you online, certainly makes me appreciate the excellent company I am fortunate and priviledged enough to keep, all the more. I don't have to deal with people like you IRL, at all, and I am grateful for that.

Protip: As a businessman, you should understand you shouldnt have half a mill sitting on an account doing absolutely nothing except earning a pittance of interest.

No, I don't know what you mean. You were both being as petty as each other, only issue is that at least Nullist was being positively more constructive than you.


now, about choice, you're right. We're not forced, but once again, when I paid for this game, I expected a full game, because that's what most other games do when I pay such a large premium for them - the full game. The choice I see these days, is not whether I'd like to gain full-access to the game, like I already ought to, but whether or not I want to play the game. And that means I won't be getting friends to buy this game any more. With a game that is really not that well known, or only vaguely, it relies on the opinions of its playerbase, and right now, the opinion is "P2W". that's not good for business.

If the company needs to pay its bills, and whatever other else it is you think, then they will need new customers. Not bleeding the old ones dry.

Now, in regards to Starcraft - it wasn't randomly patched. It was very well patched and had absolute balance, hence why it became so acclaimed, and even made it to a famous e-sports scene in S. Korea. Not because they made people buy new units every 3 months.

Relic already said that their sales from CoH2 are doing really quite well.

Just to be clear we are very happy with the performance of CoH 2 so far. It's tracking very well against the sales of our other games, including DoW II and the original CoH. Some of that's made the news: http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/07/31/sega-financials-rise-on-positive-company-of-heroes-2-sales

Now, if games in the past managed so well on initial sales to continue to support their game, then why suddenly do we have to pay for it?

the thoughtful reply I put here earlier

Your thoughtful reply only views it from the customer's perspective. From Relic's perspective this strategy is potentially the best if a decent amount of players are willing to spend a small amount on these DLC's. We do not know these figures yet.

You repeatedly mention "more costumers = more money", but these DLC's are aimed at current owners of CoH2. This type of Bait and Hook model certainly works, especialy since many players already took the "bait" by buying CoH2.

No, I don't know what you mean. You were both being as petty as each other, only issue is that at least Nullist was being positively more constructive than you.


now, about choice, you're right. We're not forced, but once again, when I paid for this game, I expected a full game, because that's what most other games do when I pay such a large premium for them - the full game. The choice I see these days, is not whether I'd like to gain full-access to the game, like I already ought to, but whether or not I want to play the game. And that means I won't be getting friends to buy this game any more. With a game that is really not that well known, or only vaguely, it relies on the opinions of its playerbase, and right now, the opinion is "P2W". that's not good for business.

If the company needs to pay its bills, and whatever other else it is you think, then they will need new customers. Not bleeding the old ones dry.

Now, in regards to Starcraft - it wasn't randomly patched. It was very well patched and had absolute balance, hence why it became so acclaimed, and even made it to a famous e-sports scene in S. Korea. Not because they made people buy new units every 3 months.

Relic already said that their sales from CoH2 are doing really quite well.



Now, if games in the past managed so well on initial sales to continue to support their game, then why suddenly do we have to pay for it?

You are entitled to your opinion but you received the full game on the release day. If Relic decide to release more content at a small cost then it's their decision. You are free to leave whenever you like. Hating a company because they want to make a profit is just good energy wasted because they will never provide you with free stuff.

EVE online, a great game btw, always brags about the free expansions they provide for their players but they have a monthly subscription fee.

Would you like COH to be free but at a monthly cost?

One way or the other, Relic needs to pay the bills and this is one way to do it, they just chose the business model where they add DLC to the FULL game. Something that's pretty common these days actually.

Take Borderlands for example, great game as well, DLC added on a regular basis, nobody is complaining about that. It's a modern business model.

Right, because I am a customer, and that is who the game is made for. The method only works on F2P models, who even know that you don't make the content exclusively available for cash. No one likes anything that stinks of P2W.

If they want to follow that model, then I don't see why I we should have already bought the game.

I haven't made any judgement about any figures, and haven't said that no one is buying it and other sensationalised nonsense. All I've done is put forward my opinion on it. I stand by the notion that more customers = more money, because it does. you can get way more money out of the huge number of potential players, than you can ever out of a small, already existing playerbase who clearly aren't happy about paying for this content.

A great deal may have reluctantly bought it this time, but I certainly doubt they'll buy wave 2 - and it'll be likely for the reasons I already stated. But we'll see.

You are entitled to your opinion but you received the full game on the release day. If Relic decide to release more content at a small cost then it's their decision. You are free to leave whenever you like. Hating a company because they want to make a profit is just good energy wasted because they will never provide you with free stuff.

EVE online, a great game btw, always brags about the free expansions they provide for their players but they have a monthly subscription fee.

Would you like COH to be free but at a monthly cost?

One way or the other, Relic needs to pay the bills and this is one way to do it, they just chose the business model where they add DLC to the FULL game. Something that's pretty common these days actually.

Take Borderlands for example, great game as well, DLC added on a regular basis, nobody is complaining about that. It's a modern business model.

The only sorts of games that run well on subscriptions, which I take as proof from the success of it only deriving from MMOs. Which is fine, I like subscriptions on MMOs, since there is often a great cost to games like that.

Perhaps CoH should have been free, and followed the standard F2P models, which are proven to work. I'd be fine with that, I just don't see why I should have to pay for a game with a whole bunch of problems, such as the input lag, and the inexplicable player-lag which hasn't been ironed out before they resorted to charging us for this 'content'. I don't believe that what we bought was the full-game, but like many games do these days, where you invest in a less-stable version of the game, which gets improved many months later. That's super-common these days, and that's not something I have a problem with. I just see what's happening and it doesn't seem like additional content, but instead a way to make a quick buck out of the loyal player base.

What isn't common these days, is charging a steep price for a triple-A game, releasing it in a questionable state, adding two patches and what? The work is done - are they dusting off their hands, patting each other on the back saying "good job"? I doubt it. They know work needs to be done, and i have no doubt that they'll get it done, but this model is not a proven success. It's not something I've even ever encountered before - and of course I have a problem with it.


Borderlands definitely did well, but they also went full out on the merchandising, which brings them in a -huge- amount of money. Of course, the difference between CoH2 and Borderlands is really quite big, and Borderlands is very much a single-player game, with the co-op being as much as it gets in multiplayer. There's no competitive angle, and there's no advantage to buying the new heroes, or the expansions. That is simply a choice to expand the game, and while a fine line between that, and what's happening here, you just need to remember that they are fundamentally different games, and Borderlands has been doing what nearly every single-player game has been doing for a long time, while coH2 is doing something absolute backwards, and unprecedented to my eyes.

Its mind boggling where the hell you "read this between the lines".
It isn't there. There is no evidence for it. Its all in your own fucking head, and your own internal bigoted interpretation of what you FEEL people are saying.

Nobody has said they cant afford the DLC.
Nobody has said the DLC is problematic, because they "can't afford it".

If it turns out the DLC's have poor sales figures, it could be argued that players cannot afford it. The players in this thread, or in general, do not need to explicitly state they cannot afford them. These are "implied preferences", you should know this after 2 years of business studies, nurse Sebastian.

Mumbo jumbo from a rl Alpha Male who looks like a homeless person.

Protip: As a businessman, you should understand you shouldnt have half a mill sitting on an account doing absolutely nothing except earning a pittance of interest.

I don't like you, and I don't care if you like me. We're in mutual agreement on that so don't bother replying to my posts and I most definitely won't bother you again. Ok?

Great protip it's just that I just recently sold off all my stock because I consider the market to be very expensive at the moment. We're on the same levels we were on before the 2008 crisis. That's a protip for you. It's better to buy when times are hard and not the other way around.

I stand by the notion that more customers = more money, because it does. you can get way more money out of the huge number of potential players, than you can ever out of a small, already existing playerbase who clearly aren't happy about paying for this content.

The core of this type of business model escapes your notion. The net revenue from an unknown number of these DLC's over an indefinite period of time can potentially be greater than the net revenue of the game itself. While this is applied, new customers can be "hooked" by all types of discount sales of CoH2.

These DLC sales are independent of the efforts to acquire new customers.

The core of this type of business model escapes your notion. The net revenue from an unknown number of these DLC's over an indefinite period of time can potentially be greater than the net revenue of the game itself. While this is applied, new customers can be "hooked" by all types of discount sales of CoH2.

Certainly, and I haven't claimed to know of such, all I've done is put forward my opinion on the situation, and where I stand on it. It's a zealous drive, really, and I can't make any denial of that, where I hope people will see and agree with what I have to say, and make a judgement against this model, because, the customer shouldn't care how well the business is doing beyond whether or not it's sustainable for them. When I play this game, I don't do it, like what I will assume is the majority of the player-base, to see that Relic does well, but because I want to play a fun game. And it stopped being fun when I had to pay for content that I, and hopefully many others, in a greater proportion, feel we should have already have had, or get for free.

These DLC sales are independent of the efforts to acquire new customers.

Which I disagree with, because if we assume that what I say is what many others have to say, and they're just as vocal about it as me, then it will stifle new flows of customers who will just avoid the game, because it's being branded as "P2W". Whether or not P2W is entirely true, is debatable, but that is what it's being branded as, and there's a reason no game wants to be given that label.

I do believe fully that DLC, of the likes it is here, will affect new players' choice ot buy the game. I'm sure it gets concerning for them, now, when they see the following:

Key Features
Award Winning Franchise – Sequel to the highest rated strategy game of all time returns with an innovative warfare experience that will redefine the Strategy genre once more

Essence 3.0 Engine – Cutting-edge technology that increases the graphical quality and accuracy of deadly combat with the unprecedented TrueSight™ system and ultrarealistic ColdTech™ dynamic weather that changes strategic warfare forever

Blood and Snow – Take command of the iconic Red Army on the Eastern Front and repel the Enemy invaders in this Battle of the Ideologies

Tactical Warfare – Develop and utilize your new Commander Abilities and experience the up-close moment-to-moment brutality of frontline warfare through new Dynamic Battle Tactics

Intense Online Combat – Featuring the great competitive and co-operative multiplayer that fans have grown to expect from this high-quality and critically acclaimed franchise

Which is taken from the steam page of the game.

Now, when they take a look at this page: http://store.steampowered.com/sale/Company_of_Heroes_2_Commanders


What do you think the impression is? That is a huge page of content - and that's just the commanders.

They will buy the game, and have to be charged even more, for what are key features of the game - aka. fundamental content that is supposed to be the game's selling-point. You're not supposed to literally sell the selling point. The selling point is meant to be a part of the game you bought, which makes people buy the game first-off.

can you imagine having to pay for further implementations of the other "Key Features"? It would just be insane, and I can't see why they've done it.

Right, because I am a customer, and that is who the game is made for. The method only works on F2P models

No. Please do check out www.steampowered.com and check out Borderlands, Sins of a Solar Empire, Civilization or any other big title. Many of them have DLC stuff added to them to keep the game alive to be honest it's alot better they keep the games alive that way than to let the game decay due to lack of funds to better it further.

No. Please do check out www.steampowered.com and check out Borderlands, Sins of a Solar Empire, Civilization or any other big title. Many of them have DLC stuff added to them to keep the game alive to be honest it's alot better they keep the games alive that way than to let the game decay due to lack of funds to better it further.

I'm looking, and I see that Sins of a Solar Empire has two stand-alone versions and one DLC.

Civilisation, yes, has abundance of DLC. I made the mistake of thinking it had only a few, but that's simply because I've never played the game. From what I have read of those DLCs, it seems that even these DLCs hold a far greater value than the, somehow, more expensive commanders of CoH2. Doesn't this only go to show how, at the very least, over-priced these DLCs are? Seems like whole new factions, zones, tiles and other features that cost substantially less than Case Blue, which was not all that expansive.

Though, aren't these two games considered to be more of a single-player experience, where as CoH2 is trying to appeal to the more competitive side of the RTS scene? A difference like that should make a fundamental difference in the business models you use, no doubt.


=========



As a further edit, I did a rough count of all the DLC available for CoH2, compared to those two games with a substanitally longer life than coH2:

Sins: 1 DLC
Civ: 13 DLC
CoH2: 62 (got distracted and lost count along the way, but you get the idea! )


What sort of message do you think that sends new customers, 3 months down the line after a game is out? Not to mention whispers of P2W that are blowing in the breeze. Maybe someone would care to do the maths on how often it is that Relic appear to be grabbing at our money, while games like Civ that were released just over 3 years ago, are releasing better DLC, for way less.

What do you think the impression is?

The average customer does not really dig very deep and read everything there is to know if the game is labeled 33% off, for instance. You overstate customer behaviour. Surely you did not thoroughly read forums, reviews and game content of the 48 games that you currently own on steam?

Furthermore, your previous post regarding Civilization is a perfect example how "whispers of P2W" do not affect new customers to a significant extent.

I'm looking, and I see that Sins of a Solar Empire has two stand-alone versions and one DLC.

Civilisation, yes, has abundance of DLC. I made the mistake of thinking it had only a few, but that's simply because I've never played the game. From what I have read of those DLCs, it seems that even these DLCs hold a far greater value than the, somehow, more expensive commanders of CoH2. Doesn't this only go to show how, at the very least, over-priced these DLCs are? Seems like whole new factions, zones, tiles and other features that cost substantially less than Case Blue, which was not all that expansive.

Though, aren't these two games considered to be more of a single-player experience, where as CoH2 is trying to appeal to the more competitive side of the RTS scene? A difference like that should make a fundamental difference in the business models you use, no doubt.


=========



As a further edit, I did a rough count of all the DLC available for CoH2, compared to those two games with a substanitally longer life than coH2:

Sins: 1 DLC
Civ: 13 DLC
CoH2: 62 (got distracted and lost count along the way, but you get the idea! )


What sort of message do you think that sends new customers, 3 months down the line after a game is out? Not to mention whispers of P2W that are blowing in the breeze. Maybe someone would care to do the maths on how often it is that Relic appear to be grabbing at our money, while games like Civ that were released just over 3 years ago, are releasing better DLC, for way less.

Well to be honest I don't think it's fair to count every COH2 DLC individually because there's alot of cosmetic upgrades that don't really add anything to the game.

Count the commanders and we'll have more truthful number or better yet, count the commanders that contain abilities that you don't find in any other commander, new content that justifies paying for it so to speak.

Also, do the people who are saying "pay for more variety = pay to win" think that that is the case for LoL and Dota 2, because those games have a massive competitive scene and are based on the foundation of "pay for more variety"

Why people keep mentioning this? BIG FAIL HERE. First they are F2P MOBAS, second DOTA has only cosmetic microtransactions n LOL (if i remember well) has a free rotation heroes AND let you get any commander by getting INGAME currency.
The model here is TIME = money. You don´t have time, spend money. You dont have money, spend time. ALL PLAYERS ARE ON AN EQUAL status regarding gameplay.

@The_Riddler + @Tivook
Dont use games from other genres to justify the "P2W". I mean, you can´t compare games which are FPS or focus on the SP with a "competitive" RTS focus on the MP.

I would be fine playing against a new faction, and here we can argue that having commanders is a way of having "small faction variations", but the price for the overall product is high in comparison to what the game offers.

The average customer does not really dig very deep and read everything there is to know if the game is labeled 33% off, for instance. You overstate customer behaviour. Surely you did not thoroughly read forums, reviews and game content of the 48 games that you currently own on steam?

Furthermore, your previous post regarding Civilization is a perfect example how "whispers of P2W" do not affect new customers to a significant extent.

True, but think of the niche market COH2, RTS in general. MORE if you expect to play something on MP expecting some equal playfield.

You need to learn to read between the lines, alot of people who whine about certain things whine because they can't afford it. People whine about all kinds of things and the bottom line is they usually don't want to spend more money than they have to.

lol this is a truly epic post

What makes you think someone that bought CoH2, has a computer capable of running it, and internet fast enough to play it online can't afford DLC commanders? I can afford to spend $10 on a McDouble at McDonalds but I'm not going to because its only worth $1 and that money could be spent on things that actually earned its price tag, like a meal at Five Guys. Don't charge a premium for a second rate product.

lol this is a truly epic post

What makes you think someone that bought CoH2, has a computer capable of running it, and internet fast enough to play it online can't afford DLC commanders? I can afford to spend $10 on a McDouble at McDonalds but I'm not going to because its only worth $1 and that money could be spent on things that actually earned its price tag, like a meal at Five Guys. Don't charge a premium for a second rate product.

Well what can I say. Using your metaphor describing the situation the only thing I can say is go play whatever game equals Five Guys if COH2 is McDonalds in this case.

Buh bye!

To me, COH2 is a masterpiece even if I agree it still has a long way to go before it's as good as COH1. Pathing needs work, especially vehicle pathing, netcode needs work ( and hosted servers ) map balance issues and whatnot but still, I've played around 200 hours so far and I'm loving it.

I could go watch a movie that would entertain me for 2 hours and pay the same amount I'd pay to get new commanders that would provide me with a potentially unlimited amount of entertainment.

You need to look at the bang for the buck.