SU-85; The Thread

you know what they say birds of a feather whine together, Fly*

You know what they say .... trolls of a feather spam together. Isn't it past your bed time chicken troll ?

You know what they say .... trolls of a feather spam together. Isn't it past your bed time chicken troll ?

i remember my first beer, keep up the good work panzer

^^Wow.. original.. Now sit down

Friedchicken, you may as well start a new account. Youve deliberately destroyed all your own credibility and absolutely nobody is going to give a shit if you actually, one day, decide to post something constructive.

I feel a speed decrease to the su85 is not going to balance the tank in a way that most people want it to be balanced. A supported su85 is still not going to die to a flank and let's face it most people want an option to be able to offensively kill the su85 head on they don't want to be required to flank the thing. I guess a speed decrease is going to punish all those rambo su85s that charge into the enemy lines unsupported so I guess there's that.

How are we still discussing this? You can't flank a SU-85 on half the maps, the other half just require mine placement to stop flanks.

SU85 is fine as it is. Dr.Octogon and StephennJF said it very well.

The problem is german players still go for Panzer IV(s) even when they know SU85 is coming or even when it is on the field already. That is just plain bad countering! (Even though PIV can possibly outmaneuver SU85 because of its slow rotating speed, but still, SU85 is SUPPOSED to counter medium armor.)

If you keep spamming a medium tank every game, any decent player will just build apropriate counter unit every game. So surprising and outrageous right? How dare they even do that!

SU85 is absolutely god awful against infantry. If you see SU85 and go for ifantry instead, the russian player just wasted huge amount of resources on tier 4 building and SU85(s) that won`t do anything. Plus Panzergrenadiers with schreks absolutely tear apart SU85s (and many other units...).

Then there is smoke to block its line of sight etc. but that is secondary.

Someone told me: "Yeah, but my infantry is getting killed by the sniper(s)." Well that may be the case, but then the question is not what to do about the SU85 but what to do about the sniper(s). And in this case I am inclined to agree with ppl who say snipers - on both sides - in general are OP (a unit that can insta-kill any infantry, has long range and cloak on friggin tier 1?? - I wouldn`t mind snipers being general-specific call in units with 4 or 5 command points requirement for example, but that`s OT).

Anyway, seems like german is the new protoss - just qq-ing about how everything is OP and their faction so terribly underpowered in comparison.

SU85 is fine as it is. Dr.Octogon and StephennJF said it very well.

The problem is german players still go for Panzer IV(s) even when they know SU85 is coming or even when it is on the field already. That is just plain bad countering! (Even though PIV can possibly outmaneuver SU85 because of its slow rotating speed, but still, SU85 is SUPPOSED to counter medium armor.)

If you keep spamming a medium tank every game, any decent player will just build apropriate counter unit every game. So surprising and outrageous right? How dare they even do that!

SU85 is absolutely god awful against infantry. If you see SU85 and go for ifantry instead, the russian player just wasted huge amount of resources on tier 4 building and SU85(s) that won`t do anything. Plus Panzergrenadiers with schreks absolutely tear apart SU85s (and many other units...).

Then there is smoke to block its line of sight etc. but that is secondary.

Someone told me: "Yeah, but my infantry is getting killed by the sniper(s)." Well that may be the case, but then the question is not what to do about the SU85 but what to do about the sniper(s). And in this case I am inclined to agree with ppl who say snipers - on both sides - in general are OP (a unit that can insta-kill any infantry, has long range and cloak on friggin tier 1?? - I wouldn`t mind snipers being general-specific call in units with 4 or 5 command points requirement for example, but that`s OT).

Anyway, seems like german is the new protoss - just qq-ing about how everything is OP and their faction so terribly underpowered in comparison.

Are you that daft .... panzer gren squads are SLOW SU85 can REVERSE FASTER THAN ANY GERMAN TANKS FORWARD SPEED and you think they wouldnt simple reverse outta the way and send in shocks/maxims/conscripts/snipers to force you to retreat those shrek squads ?

Finally ... snipers on BOTH sides op? LOL do you even play germans ... do you know how ridiculously fragile the one man German sniper is ? The Russian 2 man sniper can counter snipe the German one all day long due to the 2 man advantage.

Also Russians have 6 man squads which means the German sniper is even less effective.

Are you that daft ....

Nice ad hominem argument for starters

panzer gren squads are SLOW SU85 can REVERSE FASTER THAN ANY GERMAN TANKS FORWARD SPEED and you think they wouldnt simple reverse outta the way and send in shocks/maxims/conscripts/snipers to force you to retreat those shrek squads ?

So in your scenario the german player has just one squad of pgrens and the russian player has SU85/shocks/maxims/conscripts/snipers. Well that sucks, the german player should really work on his unit preservation!

Anyway you probably didn`t understand my argument or you just didn`t want to. It`s about countering and what you build when. And you don`t need to kill the SU85(s), you need to win the game. Actually focusing so much on killing the damn SU85 might be what keeps you from winning in the first place. If your opponent retreats to his base just cap the map - since he wasted his resources on tier 4 building and SU85(s) you should have an advantage as far as infatry goes.

Finally ... snipers on BOTH sides op? LOL do you even play germans ... do you know how ridiculously fragile the one man German sniper is ? The Russian 2 man sniper can counter snipe the German one all day long due to the 2 man advantage.

Also Russians have 6 man squads which means the German sniper is even less effective.

The fact that russian sniper can countersnipe the german one much easily than vice versa is undoubtedly true (I didn`t claim otherwise). That doesn`t mean the snipers are balanced against the rest of the units though.

And finally, I play both factions, usually the one that has smaller percentage in auto-match since I don`t have time to wait too long. Lately that meant more soviets - interesting that despite crying on forums how soviets are OP, most of the people actually don`t want to play them and prefer germans But to be honest I prefer germans for 1v1s too.

Sevenfour,

You mentioned that the Ostheer players "keep making P4s". Well, they are they the only tanks that are at equivalent cost and time that they are produced (around 12 minutes).

SU85 reverse can reverse outspeed tanks AND infantry trying to catch up to it.

su85 can often snipe paks and infantry squads. It's not as effective as a T34, but it has longer range and a cone vision.
The only way infantry squads can run up to it is with a DOCTRINAL tactical movement ability.

If you don't kill the su85, it will gain veterancy and become an unstoppable monster. Finally, su85+snipers+120mm mortars have great synergy (su85 provides easy sight) to stop your "infantry/AT guns" trying to flank it, a further reason why you must kill su85s early.

Why should Ostheer be forced to have more micro and tactics while also using DOCTRINAL specific abilities/units to counter this easier spam.

@Sevenfour

The non-doctrinal hard counters to an SU-85 are shrek grens and the PAK-40s. Neither of them pose a serious threat to an SU-85 that's reasonably well managed. The SU-85 is reasonably good at sniping infantry (it's not got the area of effect of a P-IV shell but it's much more accurate) and a pair of SU-85s will fairly reliably kill a PAK head-on.

If the Soviet player introduces a better anti-infantry vehicle or snipers to accompany the SU-85, just ignoring it is no longer really a possibility. I think a lot of the P-IV preference is due to the rest of German tier 3 not threatening the SU-85 at all.

I'm really sorry but if at this point your still defending the power of the SU-85 your either delusional or blind. If you respond to this I assume it's the former.

NO Tank in the game should have a potential 60 LOS / 66 Range / 320MP 115 Fuel Cost and be out by the time Germans can field there first "Shock" Heavy Vehicles. Let's not even talk about the ridiculous frontal armour, epic gun and the hysterical reverse speed.

I had a situation on Minsk Pocket where I had 3 PIV's from 3 seperate sides attack a SU-85, the outcome was 2 Dead PIV's and a crippled later abandoned PIV. Reverse into a corner until you run out of room then just frontally face the threat there so god damn idiot proof.

I understand the point of the Sov players as they dont have any really vehicle anti tank defense without su 85 or doctrinal t34-85s. The su 85s were not a problem until the heavy nerfs to the German armor, which I agree may have been a little strong at the start. But combined with the stug range and over usefulness reduction , Panther nerf and p4 although buffed got a speed nerf, all combined to make the Su 85 the new King of the Battlefield. While I understand their aim, balancing the entire arsenal of tanks at one time seemed obvious it was going to be trouble.

I think we need more variety in tanks in the first place and tank discrepancies won't hit either side so harshly. Bring in some hetzers and marders and make t34-85 a upgrade, land lease shermans, ap rounds for su 76 so they are not useless etc....Also tanks are so costly compared to coh it makes the the armor battle drastically different. Make at guns overall better. Right now the game is stuck in P4 vs SU 85. Gets real boring fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7O0KEqStHM

Not my video, but it shows the problem quite well.

- Problem is not only the range and reverse speed of the Su-85
- At vet 2 it 2shots StuGs making those not viable at all

Holy crap that video. I didnt even think it was that op.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7O0KEqStHM

Not my video, but it shows the problem quite well.

- Problem is not only the range and reverse speed of the Su-85
- At vet 2 it 2shots StuGs making those not viable at all

The su85 should not 2 shot stugs at vet 2, that's a balance problem that could simply be fixed by buffing the stug but you have to also keep in mind the stugs purpose; is it supposed to be a counter to the su85?

I agree the su85 needs to be toned down w out a question, but the video proves nothing new and if balance is based around who spends more manpower than a lot of people will stop playing. It's like posting a video of a guard squad and 2 conscript squads blobbed head on into a mg42 than crying the mg42 is op because a 240 manpower unit chewed up 840 manpower with out breaking a sweat and it that case the mg42 wouldn't even require micro.

The su85 should not 2 shot stugs at vet 2, that's a balance problem that could simply be fixed by buffing the stug but you have to also keep in mind the stugs purpose; is it supposed to be a counter to the su85?

I agree the su85 needs to be toned down w out a question, but the video proves nothing new and if balance is based around who spends more manpower than a lot of people will stop playing. It's like posting a video of a guard squad and 2 conscript squads blobbed head on into a mg42 than crying the mg42 is op because a 240 manpower unit chewed up 840 manpower with out breaking a sweat and it that case the mg42 wouldn't even require micro.

can mg42 reverse away from a flanking attack while still getting shots off ?


the question is not about the su85 killing stuff headon ... its the fact that it can reverse away warp speed from any flanking attack unless the guy is a total n00b which makes flanking su85's almost pointless with its speed.

This game is A spam ...

In beta all units was important and now it's a spam, why ?

Because Su-85 counter t-3 and t-4 axis.

Because tank cost only only 200-300-400 ( 400 for panther ) manpower ..........

The comeback is impossible now if you loose your fuel to long time because of this, ridiculous :/

We need pz 4 : 440 manpower SU-85 : 440 manpower

Panther : 560 manpower

IS-2 : 220 fuel

Tigre : 220 fuel

Range of Su-85 need to be 50, and front armor reduce, reduce is price too for 85 fuel like in beta --'

So if german go t-3, SU-85 is a good option, if germans go t-4, SU-85 is a bad option and so russian need to go like at gun or make is-2.

The important problem actually is russian never need to read the axis strat for make his build ..... but the build of axis depend of the russians strat --' so Soviet are ridiculous more easy to play, because they never need to read the strat of axis and use their head --' I don't know if i can say COH 2 is a strategy game actually :/ especially for russians ...

All units need to be important for win, and actually it's what ? a spam of 3 units ? SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM with no brain actually.

I find coh 2 a great game in beta, but actually it's like very a noob strategy game ...

strategy game = use his head and combined armor, i don't see lot of this actually in coh 2 ....

can mg42 reverse away from a flanking attack while still getting shots off ?


the question is not about the su85 killing stuff headon ... its the fact that it can reverse away warp speed from any flanking attack unless the guy is a total n00b which makes flanking su85's almost pointless with its speed.

No offense but I really don't see the point of your reply. Did you even watch the video my comment was aimed towards? Just watch it THAN read my post.

I agree the su85 needs to be toned down w out a question, but the video proves nothing new and if balance is based around who spends more manpower than a lot of people will stop playing. It's like posting a video of a guard squad and 2 conscript squads blobbed head on into a mg42 than crying the mg42 is op because a 240 manpower unit chewed up 840 manpower with out breaking a sweat and it that case the mg42 wouldn't even require micro.

The point was to show how ridiculous the buff is the Su-85 gets at vet 2. It´s not only a super strong vehicle that excels in speed, range of the gun, vision range, price. No, it also get´s superb veterancy bonuses. That´s for me the reason to almost never ever build StuGs. You FEED VET to the Su-85 and you can´t flank it. Hell, you can barely even shoot back at it if it reverses.