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russian armor

SU-85; The Thread

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2 Aug 2013, 08:22 AM
#221
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255


Stugs are not proving effective enough vs SU85s, imo.

Conscripts are not proving effecting enough vs Ostwinds.

FIX IT RELIC!@!~!!!!


Oh yeah mister sarcastic, because conscripts are dedicated AT and their main purpose is to kill tanks?

The stug is a tank destroyer just like the su85.

Wait why am I even taking the time of replying to this guy...
2 Aug 2013, 08:26 AM
#222
avatar of Crells

Posts: 255

Well considering how slowly conscripts kill other infantry i see his point but do not condone the saracasm
2 Aug 2013, 08:33 AM
#223
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2013, 08:26 AMCrells
Well considering how slowly conscripts kill other infantry i see his point but do not condone the saracasm


Conscripts are quite useful all round units imo, at nades, molotovs, ppsh's with htd(still decent even after patch), merge.. They kill infantry quick enough?

Anyways we are getting way :ot: ^_^ :D
2 Aug 2013, 09:32 AM
#224
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Whats the SU85 scatter value?
2 Aug 2013, 09:39 AM
#225
avatar of Umbert

Posts: 119

Whats the SU85 scatter value?


By ace4sure:

Elefant:
Code
"angle_scatter": 7.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 10,


STUG:
Code
"angle_scatter": 7.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 6.5,


PAK 40:
Code
"angle_scatter": 7.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 10,


SU85:
Code
"angle_scatter": 5,
"distance_scatter_max": 7.5,


SU76:
Code
"angle_scatter": 5.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 10,




ZiS-3 76mm:
Code
"angle_scatter": 7.5,
"distance_scatter_max": 10,


What I feel is warranted is a speed reduction of the SU85 both reverse and turning speed that if you catch one off guard and unsupported that it will be possible to circle and chase them. And adjust their scatter at max range because as ace4sure stated I also noticed that their accuracy vs. PaKs is absurd and that they consistently snipe infantry.

As with the StuG I'm also a bit dissatisfied with its cost or its performance. Because now you have two anti tank tanks in T3 (PzIV and StuG) and the PzIV seems to be the better cost-effective choice here. For players that skip T2 for example there are these two tanks against armor which cost 95 and 115 fuel. I would like to see the StuG as a cheaper, lighter AT alternative to the PzIV maybe reduce its cost back to 65 fuel (I think it was 50 in beta, that would be too cheap).
2 Aug 2013, 09:51 AM
#226
avatar of Mauser

Posts: 255

I'd rather have the stug buffed range wise than having its cost decreased, because in real life it was better than an su85.
2 Aug 2013, 10:22 AM
#227
avatar of geist

Posts: 79

Played 2v2 on Pripyat winter yesterday, we held both fuelpoints and 2 VPs a decent amount of time and had a total of like 5 P4 early. They still managed to fuck us with like 2 Su85. Ridiculous match. I even placed a Pak43, but of course it was instantly destroyed by airstrike (didn't place it well anyway, did't get a good shot).
2 Aug 2013, 16:52 PM
#228
avatar of S0_L337_1T_HURTS

Posts: 99

We've all given our absolute best points, formed articulate arguments both for and against SU-85 in it's current state. When a Dev does comment in these threads it's usually quite cryptic or sometimes nonsensical (doesn't directly address central question, says alot of 'nothing').

It's all beginning to feel like a rather pointless exercise and, I too, no longer care. I'm kind of "done" playing until there's big changes, the current meta/gameplay is just so unappealing I've almost no motivation or desire to play.
2 Aug 2013, 19:31 PM
#229
avatar of Con!

Posts: 299

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2013, 10:22 AMgeist
Played 2v2 on Pripyat winter yesterday, we held both fuelpoints and 2 VPs a decent amount of time and had a total of like 5 P4 early. They still managed to fuck us with like 2 Su85. Ridiculous match. I even placed a Pak43, but of course it was instantly destroyed by airstrike (didn't place it well anyway, did't get a good shot).

Was that vs. me and CieZ by any chance?
2 Aug 2013, 21:42 PM
#230
avatar of geist

Posts: 79

Nope, dont remember opponent's names, but they were longer :)
3 Aug 2013, 12:02 PM
#231
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 978

In the original COH there was a unit that outranged all the tanks and was still balanced. It was the PE´s Marder III. You know why it was balanced? To outrange other tanks it had to deploy. Thus it could actually be flanked. Maybe this is a solution for the Su-85. It could get it´s sight and range increase only when deployed.
3 Aug 2013, 12:06 PM
#232
avatar of sir muffin

Posts: 531

In the original COH there was a unit that outranged all the tanks and was still balanced. It was the PE´s Marder III. You know why it was balanced? To outrange other tanks it had to deploy. Thus it could actually be flanked. Maybe this is a solution for the Su-85. It could get it´s sight and range increase only when deployed.


+10000
yes please, perfect solution
3 Aug 2013, 12:19 PM
#233
avatar of Tri86

Posts: 97

In the original COH there was a unit that outranged all the tanks and was still balanced. It was the PE´s Marder III. You know why it was balanced? To outrange other tanks it had to deploy. Thus it could actually be flanked. Maybe this is a solution for the Su-85. It could get it´s sight and range increase only when deployed.


Yeah it was sluggish (awful turning) and fragile, but fast. I think the SU85 should be similar in feel.
3 Aug 2013, 13:56 PM
#234
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Aug 2013, 12:19 PMTri86


Yeah it was sluggish (awful turning) and fragile, but fast. I think the SU85 should be similar in feel.


It was much more fragile than the SU-85 (if an M8 for close it was toast, never mind a Wolverine or Sherman) and couldn't spot for itself. I always found it was actually a bit weak as most tanks could slug it out and win against it; no need to nerf the SU to its level.

I kinda like the idea actually. This would make the SU more vulnerable to ambushes, flanking, Truesight shenanigans and Panzerwerfers. Attacking from the front would still be a mistake, however.
3 Aug 2013, 14:33 PM
#235
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

My only concern with SU-85 now, is its reverse speed and perhaps the cost.

I just had some matches where I managed to get my Panther out quickly, and it totally ravages the SU-85, even in a 1v1 fight. The SU-85 is still king at range, which is fair, but if that reverse speed and cost could be nerfed a little bit it would make my day.

Everything else is fine, I think.
4 Aug 2013, 20:19 PM
#236
avatar of ShootToThrill

Posts: 8

The main problem with the SU-85 is the skill it takes to use and support. Because the SU-85 can engage german tanks without risking return fire, supporting the SU-85 vs german armor simply requires having a conscript squad nearby with an AT grenade or guards with button, since german tanks HAVE to close with the SU-85. The real problem is the Axis' lack of a non-doctrinal, mobile unit that can fire back at the SU at its maximum range.

The answer here should be the StuG, but it's not. I think if the PanzerWerfer were moved down to Tier 3 and the StuG moved up to Tier 4 and given a range buff so that it can engage the SU at its maximum range, you'd see more mixed armor tactics from the soviets and less SU85 spam.
4 Aug 2013, 20:27 PM
#237
avatar of Umbert

Posts: 119

The main problem with the SU-85 is the skill it takes to use and support. Because the SU-85 can engage german tanks without risking return fire, supporting the SU-85 vs german armor simply requires having a conscript squad nearby with an AT grenade or guards with button, since german tanks HAVE to close with the SU-85. The real problem is the Axis' lack of a non-doctrinal, mobile unit that can fire back at the SU at its maximum range.

The answer here should be the StuG, but it's not. I think if the PanzerWerfer were moved down to Tier 3 and the StuG moved up to Tier 4 and given a range buff so that it can engage the SU at its maximum range, you'd see more mixed armor tactics from the soviets and less SU85 spam.


Or simply pressing U and clicking inside your base, since the the SU can reverse as fast as German armor can advance without vet one. While still shooting and hitting!

Yes something should be done to the StuG to better handle the SU (I would recommand a cost decrease, so you could field two StuGs for each SU when neither performances change). I also liked the idea that the sight increase puts the unit in lockdown like it did with the Marder III or severely slow the unit down at least. Or switch the ranges: give the StuG 60 range and the SU 50. that would be interesting with the spotting abilities.
4 Aug 2013, 20:44 PM
#238
avatar of CombatMuffin

Posts: 642

Make Panthers slightly cheaper, change PIV's to Tier 4, Panzerwerfers to Tier 3 lol. That could be interesting...
4 Aug 2013, 20:45 PM
#239
avatar of Crells

Posts: 255

The main problem with the SU-85 is the skill it takes to use and support. Because the SU-85 can engage german tanks without risking return fire, supporting the SU-85 vs german armor simply requires having a conscript squad nearby with an AT grenade or guards with button, since german tanks HAVE to close with the SU-85. The real problem is the Axis' lack of a non-doctrinal, mobile unit that can fire back at the SU at its maximum range.

The answer here should be the StuG, but it's not. I think if the PanzerWerfer were moved down to Tier 3 and the StuG moved up to Tier 4 and given a range buff so that it can engage the SU at its maximum range, you'd see more mixed armor tactics from the soviets and less SU85 spam.


You would'nt though as thats the only good thing to get imo from t4, the other 2 are nice additions to combat heavy infantry play. The SU is the only real worthwhile thing to get in t4, now if they made it possible to get t3 and t4 at a resonable cost and nerfed the su - 85 to more glass cannon i would agree but that aint the case.
5 Aug 2013, 01:29 AM
#240
avatar of panzerjager2

Posts: 168

It's a pity there is still no official response from RELIC about this su85 issues while they acknowledge the other stuff Russians make continous whines about.
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