Things that ruin team games, but don't affect 1v1

Im not disagreeing that this is the most powerful anti tank combination, im just saying that the OST JU-87 AT loiter does require LOS to be effective.

Neither I wanted to say that you are negating this, just wanted to point out that there is a perfect combination of abilities

It does require good coordination between the team members though which will only happen in AT games.

Yeah absolutely, it is an op killer in AT games. I always wondered why it is so cheap, while all other more RNG based Tank loiters (rockets) cost a lot more. JU-87 loiter only cost 110 munition. This plus the ability to get munition for fuel in the same commander results in a cheap, spammable ability with an absolutely insane damage output even to the heaviest tanks.

You get the whole thing (1x Artillery Flares + 2x Ju-87) for 280 munition. That is not much for the garuanteed destruction it will bring upon your enemies. Imo in AT it is stronger than the pre-nerfed Artillery cover, that gave you a chance to escape at least, because of a higher delay between smoke and shells plus slightly worse recon commander abilities on allied side (Artillery Flares is just the best one for reliable LOS at an area).

Yeah absolutely, it is an op killer in AT games. I always wondered why it is so cheap, while all other more RNG based Tank loiters (rockets) cost a lot more. JU-87 loiter only cost 110 munition. This plus the ability to get munition for fuel in the same commander results in a cheap, spammable ability with an absolutely insane damage output even to the heaviest tanks.

You get the whole thing (1x Artillery Flares + 2x Ju-87) for 280 munition. That is not much for the garuanteed destruction it will bring upon your enemies. Imo in AT it is stronger than the pre-nerfed Artillery cover, that gave you a chance to escape at least, because of a higher delay between smoke and shells plus slightly worse recon commander abilities on allied side (Artillery Flares is just the best one for reliable LOS at an area).

The loiter skillplanes actually cost 200. There is a similarly-named ability in the CAS commander that only strafes in a single line (and costs 110).

However, the total cost is not necessarily 460 munitions. This is dispersed between 3 people and is (thus) easily achievable (2-3, sometimes 4 times in a game, depending on your resource control). You only have to pull this off once, and you won the game. Just bait the enemy to blob their armour by presenting your Tiger(s).

Neither I wanted to say that you are negating this, just wanted to point out that there is a perfect combination of abilities



Yeah absolutely, it is an op killer in AT games. I always wondered why it is so cheap, while all other more RNG based Tank loiters (rockets) cost a lot more. JU-87 loiter only cost 110 munition. This plus the ability to get munition for fuel in the same commander results in a cheap, spammable ability with an absolutely insane damage output even to the heaviest tanks.

You get the whole thing (1x Artillery Flares + 2x Ju-87) for 280 munition. That is not much for the garuanteed destruction it will bring upon your enemies. Imo in AT it is stronger than the pre-nerfed Artillery cover, that gave you a chance to escape at least, because of a higher delay between smoke and shells plus slightly worse recon commander abilities on allied side (Artillery Flares is just the best one for reliable LOS at an area).

especially if it catches USF armour it can be game ruining.

The loiter skillplanes actually cost 200. There is a similarly-named ability in the CAS commander that only strafes in a single line (and costs 110).

However, the total cost is not necessarily 460 munitions. This is dispersed between 3 people and is (thus) easily achievable (2-3, sometimes 4 times in a game, depending on your resource control). You only have to pull this off once, and you won the game. Just bait the enemy to blob their armour by presenting your Tiger(s).

Yeah, you are right. I fu..ed this up as I look into the stats, wanted to be correct about munition but opened the wrong file As you said still a game changer if you pull this off at right time on an armored blob.


Your text..

especially if it catches USF armour it can be game ruining.

Had a game back in those times as I punished myself by playing USF in 4vs4. Got two M10s and killed a Panther. Repaired them and killed the next Panther with three M10s. Repaired again and killed two more Panthers with 4 M10s. All without loosing a single tank. It was quite a lot of micro, circling around Panthers, blocking retreat path with one M10 while drawing damaged ones away. Drove at my base with four heavily damaged M10s, jumped out to repair, Artillery flares incoming and instantly red smoke. I jumped into the M10s and tried to move them away, but too late. One loiter was coming incredibly fast from base side obliterating all four M10s. Lol, so much micro ruined by four clicks (two clicks per opponent player taking part).

Mate lost 2 Jackson in a single loiter strafe the same game. This low health tanks really stand no chance versus this ability, you don't need two loiters for that.

i fully agree on the forward retreat point. its ridiculously unfair on very big maps like steppes against WH/SU.
lelic, just get rid of that as long as not all factions dont have that stupid stuff..

i fully agree on the forward retreat point. its ridiculously unfair on very big maps like steppes against WH/SU.
lelic, just get rid of that as long as not all factions dont have that stupid stuff..

Or they could give ost and SU an ability to give the Halfrack or M5 the retreatpoint vs being immobile. For some ammo ofcourse

I believe they do not self scout anymore

That's exactly my point. They need LOS to be effective now since they don't provide their own.

That's exactly my point. They need LOS to be effective now since they don't provide their own.

Having access to recon is one of the most trivial things to accomplish in a teamgame (the topic of the OP).

Moreover, skillplanes don't require line of sight (i.e., fog of war). They only need the target to be visible for a split second. You can make a target visible by e.g., firing a panzerwerfer over the target area (at max range, to reveal as many tanks as possible).

This is also why, if you plan on using an AA vehicle to take down skillplanes, there is high chance that the vehicle itself will be targeted (and die).

Each skillplane summoning grants the user with 2 planes, and 3 strafes per plane.

The very instant that a target becomes visible, the skillplanes have acquired the target. Thus, they will go for a strafe (which can follow the tank even outside the indicated area). To pull off additional strafes, you need to make a target visible in the affected area again.

In 1v1, this is still considered acceptable because:
- Resource income
- Recon is not readily available in containing doctrines (well.. except for Vanguard).
- Skillplanes mostly works as area denial, since nobody will go back after the first run
- Thus, in 1v1 you only benefit from the alpha strike of 2 strafes (1 per plane)

In teamgames, everything is the exact opposite. And to be more precise:
- Summoning 2 CAS loiters at once means that there will be 4 planes hitting an armour blob at the same time.
- Thus, you get the alpha strike of 4 strafes. That's more than enough to turn a game.
- This doesn't even require any real coordination either. Even in randoms, you can type "Summon skillplanes here, now <ping>" (then, you just wait until you see your teammates' red smoke pop, and you do the rest).
- No counterplay possible.

Having access to recon is one of the most trivial things to accomplish in a teamgame (the topic of the OP).

Moreover, skillplanes don't require line of sight (i.e., fog of war). They only need the target to be visible for a split second. You can make a target visible by e.g., firing a panzerwerfer over the target area (at max range, to reveal as many tanks as possible).

This is also why, if you plan on using an AA vehicle to take down skillplanes, there is high chance that the vehicle itself will be targeted (and die).

Each skillplane summoning grants the user with 2 planes, and 3 strafes per plane.

The very instant that a target becomes visible, the skillplanes have acquired the target. Thus, they will go for a strafe (which can follow the tank even outside the indicated area). To pull off additional strafes, you need to make a target visible in the affected area again.

In 1v1, this is still considered acceptable because:
- Resource income
- Recon is not readily available in containing doctrines (well.. except for Vanguard).
- Skillplanes mostly works as area denial, since nobody will go back after the first run
- Thus, in 1v1 you only benefit from the alpha strike of 2 strafes (1 per plane)

In teamgames, everything is the exact opposite. And to be more precise:
- Summoning 2 CAS loiters at once means that there will be 4 planes hitting an armour blob at the same time.
- Thus, you get the alpha strike of 4 strafes. That's more than enough to turn a game.
- This doesn't even require any real coordination either. Even in randoms, you can type "Summon skillplanes here, now <ping>" (then, you just wait until you see your teammates' red smoke pop, and you do the rest).
- No counterplay possible.

This is very well described. If you are playing a team who is well coordinated, these abilities can have a YUGE impact on the game, enough to swing it in a different direction. When these abilities are called multiple times and spread out properly you can basically cover half the map, making impossible to avoid, even in your base. If Relic limits air abilities per team to one at a time, it will greatly alleviate the impact these abilities have in team games. Ex: if p47s are in the air, typhoon fighters must wait till the p47 run is finished.

That's exactly my point. They need LOS to be effective now since they don't provide their own.

Misread does as doesn't. Sorry.

OP, you forget PZ4 Command tank which provides defensive aura to entire team instead of one player. Axis tank rushes without any losses, almost invincible King Tiger and JTiger... why this is still a thing (most allies auras does not affect teammates) - idk.

One word, jagtiger lol.

This is very well described. If you are playing a team who is well coordinated, these abilities can have a YUGE impact on the game, enough to swing it in a different direction. When these abilities are called multiple times and spread out properly you can basically cover half the map, making impossible to avoid, even in your base. If Relic limits air abilities per team to one at a time, it will greatly alleviate the impact these abilities have in team games. Ex: if p47s are in the air, typhoon fighters must wait till the p47 run is finished.

+1 to Mr. Smith too, very precise.

Your suggestion seems reasonable. There has to be done something about multiple use of Offmap attacks (especially plane attacks) at the same time and the same location. It is so easy to pull off and it has such a big game impact.

The loiter skillplanes actually cost 200. There is a similarly-named ability in the CAS commander that only strafes in a single line (and costs 110).

However, the total cost is not necessarily 460 munitions. This is dispersed between 3 people and is (thus) easily achievable (2-3, sometimes 4 times in a game, depending on your resource control). You only have to pull this off once, and you won the game. Just bait the enemy to blob their armour by presenting your Tiger(s).

This was one of my concerns about the JT. With things like skill planes assaulting a JT in a team game should be near suicidal. I often find that I wait until the last possible moment because almost anything is better than an all in gamble. If I lose the gamble as Allies the game is now over, at best I can continue to stall around 1 VP until they amass enough armor.

Annoyingly the P47's strafe is less effective and runs into more AA than the Axis version giving a much less impactful rocket barrage.

Or they could give ost and SU an ability to give the Halfrack or M5 the retreatpoint vs being immobile. For some ammo ofcourse

why not remove all other points? it only promotes blobbing, with a longer retreat you also have to think if you retreat or not
F-retreat is usually a no brainer

why not remove all other points? it only promotes blobbing, with a longer retreat you also have to think if you retreat or not
F-retreat is usually a no brainer

That is also an option. I can see something for both.

This was one of my concerns about the JT. With things like skill planes assaulting a JT in a team game should be near suicidal. I often find that I wait until the last possible moment because almost anything is better than an all in gamble. If I lose the gamble as Allies the game is now over, at best I can continue to stall around 1 VP until they amass enough armor.

Annoyingly the P47's strafe is less effective and runs into more AA than the Axis version giving a much less impactful rocket barrage.

JT is one of those other bs mechanism in 4vs4, epecially on some maps that promote playing with it. In a 4vs4 your mates can help protect it flanks. On Lienne I got this monster to vet5 with over 100.000 damage dealt in one game. And we are not total noobs but ranking about rank 2XX with Allies and Axis in 4vs4. In 1vs1 maps it isn't a problem, same goes for most 2vs2 engagements. I lost my first Jagdtiger at Vet3 in that game on Lienne, so I called another one which stayed alive. Like Tiger Ace I shouldn't be allowed to get another one. In a 1vs1 or 2v2 this would change nothing, because I'm very likely to loose the game soon after anyways if I loose a Jagdtiger in that gamemode. So it would only affect that big game modes.

The P47 rocket loiter is just a RNG machine, sometimes you get great hits and sometimes you seem to hardly hit anything. It got nerfed sometime after release ans is worse than JU87 loiter now that deals high damage paired with reliable accuracy. As in real life germans control the skies... kappa

As an allied player, Wehrmacht has its powerful stuff, but nothing really stands out as overpowered. Command tank aura effecting every player feels too strong though.

OKW on the other hand is way too powerful in team games.

-Forward retreat points

-Super tanks like KT and Jagdtiger that take little micro for a huge impact on the game

-A screen of shreck blobs for said super tanks, making flanking pointless, and makes using allied armor a huge risk. It's not uncommon for the OKW player to have every single unit capable of powerful anti-tank.

-Ultra fast repair speed for said super units (see a theme here?), which means when you risk your tanks to kill/damage theirs, their vehicles have almost no downtime.

I don't want to screw up 1v1 player balance. I've been thinking lately that maybe in larger game modes, units could have different costs/pop caps due to their different effectiveness in those game modes. A jagdtiger in 1v1 is a gamble, but its often a GG for all allied armor in teams.

I still stand by the fact that 2v2 onward needs reduced incomes and should scale by # of players.
Halfing the pop would limit strats but if you reduced the income by 1/3 I feel like you would get extended early and mid battles such as the ones you see in 1v1s

FRP wouldn't be as potent as you simply wouldn't have the resources to blob so heavily.

Supply drop with a premade team breaks the game. its better than the soviet one by a great margin, you can't destroy the plane, and some maps is just free fuel and free ammo mix that with a mixed team with okw players and you have a party. crazy things like a minute 12 panther or a min 14 king tiger.

OKW base turrets shouldn't be free AA, and shouldn't be AT they can pen t34/85 with no problems