Balance Mod: Trying to kill a fly with sledgehammer.

One of the Goal of the "April 27th Balance Preview Mod" mod is to increase strategic diversity.

Instead of introducing small changes improving underused units, the changes it implement to OKW,SU and USF are so drastic and so out of faction design that are actually tantamount to redesigning these factions.

Trying to redesign 3 faction at the same time while leaving the other relatively unchanged in order to increase strategic diversity is like trying to kill a fly with sledgehammer. It will create far more problems that is will solve and it will take several patches to bring back the game in the current level of balance.

While I agree on OKW, I don't see how changes to SU or USF are "drastic".
I think you're overreacting about these.

I don't like some of changes (vision range buff for Jackson for example) but generally most of them are directed to bring up some underused units (penals, M8A1, T-34) and reduce "nobrainer" effect for overused units and strategies around them (maxim spam, rifle spam in early game).

After all, the Game gets stale after metasettles down.
So if we, for a moment, move away from idea that achieving IDEAL BALANCE is some sort of main goal, I think it would be correct to say that any shakes to meta (in a reasonable way) are good because it increases our interest to Game.

You basically get new factions inside old ones. For example, playing Soviets through Tier 1 is VERY different, than T2.

Isn't it GREAT to finally end with Maxim spam or "call-ins or GTFO"?

...While I agree on OKW, I don't see how changes to SU or USF are "drastic".
I think you're overreacting about these.
...

As I pointed out creating new strategies can be very easily achieved by minor adjustment to units. The changes introduced are changing faction design.

USF where design to have strong mainline infantry strong light vehicle play and weak support weapons.

Now their support weapons are buffed to a level that is close to Wer and that is faction redesign.

SU where designed to have weak stock units and very efficient doctrinal units.

Now their Penals are buff to riflemen levels in AI and another 4 stock units received buffs again that is faction redesigned.

OKW are all over the place receiving a huge buff in AI buff in their infantry again being redesigned.

That leaves UKF one of the factions needing redesign almost untouched and Wer probably in about the same place and probably struggling against the new Soviet and USF.

On the other hand, improvement that are easy to implement and could improve game quality allot more, are left forgotten and will probably remain so since the next patches will be trying to fix the problems this patch will create:

EFA armies veterancy are almost identical for most units of the same type and remain the same although most of this units have seen drastic changes.

Unit abilities remain mostly the same for EFA. I mean how many trip wire flares, tank that can cap and medic kits does player need?

Commander abilities remain the same although the new abilities are usually far better than the old ones.

And there is still a large number of bugs.

Dealing with this issues would change the meta with far less impact on overall balance. Exactly when does Relic intends to deal with this issues that are there for years?

As I pointed out creating new strategies can be very easily achieved by minor adjustment to units. The changes introduced are changing faction design.

Yes.
This happens when the basic faction design doesn't work.
Soviet changes allow them to pick more doctrine choices, current reliance on armor and infantry created maxim spam and tank call-in meta, which would not change unless big changes like the ones in the mod are made.

USF where design to have strong mainline infantry strong light vehicle play and weak support weapons.

Now their support weapons are buffed to a level that is close to Wer and that is faction redesign.

Wrong, USF design is to have limited options at the start of the game and expand them with flexible tech and side upgrades.

No one ever stated that their support weapons are supposed to be inferior, especially if things like their HMG comes last and costs most-that is NOT an indicator of weak unit, on the very contrary, if anything, unit arriving with such limitations should be more powerful with its counterparts.

Buffs to AT gun hardly make it on pair with any other.

SU where designed to have weak stock units and very efficient doctrinal units.

And as I've said, this design have proven to NOT work, just like old tech design.
Its limiting and extremely punishing if you don't have the IWIN doctrine setup.

Now their Penals are buff to riflemen levels in AI and another 4 stock units received buffs again that is faction redesigned.

Rifles are generalist basic infantry.
Penals are tech locked AI specialists.
Generalist infantry outperformed AI specialists by a long shot since forever.
Now it won't.

OKW are all over the place receiving a huge buff in AI buff in their infantry again being redesigned.

OKW struggled with early AI and was overpowering with AT at all stages of the game.
That was fixed.

That leaves UKF one of the factions needing redesign almost untouched and Wer probably in about the same place and probably struggling against the new Soviet and USF.

And what do you think UKF needs?
Churchills need a 2nd look(especially the stock one) and that is all.
Emplacements are not going anywhere.

EFA armies veterancy are almost identical for most units of the same type and remain the same although most of this units have seen drastic changes.

This I can agree only to a point.
Both penals and SU-85 got vet change with their revamp.

Unit abilities remain mostly the same for EFA. I mean how many trip wire flares, tank that can cap and medic kits does player need?

This I can agree with as well, though again, penal vet1 change might be a start of better vet in the future.

Commander abilities remain the same although the new abilities are usually far better than the old ones.

At this time and after years of addressing this by community, I would just drop the topic.
Relic clearly isn't interested in the slightest of making changes here.
Economy based abilities got changes and that is good for risk and reward, but don't expect anything else for old docs. They're dead.

And there is still a large number of bugs.

Bugs are not balance.
Addressing them have nothing to do with addressing balance issues.

Wrong, USF design is to have limited options at the start of the game and expand them with flexible tech and side upgrades.

Regardless of what I or you think that game design for USF faction was the patch changes it.

Once more the point of this thread is to highlight that this patch tries to fix diversity but does so in very long an complicated road and in the expense of balance...

I can debate specific but their little point in it...

Regardless of what I or you think that game design for USF faction was the patch changes it.

Once more the point of this thread is to highlight that this patch tries to fix diversity but does so in very long an complicated road and in the expense of balance...

I agree, but we've been proven already that small changes on the long run are not enough, especially in regards to units that have fallen out of meta or were never part of it.

But if the current changes mean that we'll have a diverse meta with multiple BO options for all armies and most if not all doctrinal choices at least not being suicidal options, then I'll go through with it with a smile.

Soviet doctrinal reliance and underperforming core was cancerous since day 1.
USF lack of early options and underperforming team weapons created dependency on rifle spam and E8/jackson/M10(post buffs), which led to pidgeonholed BO you either had to go with or you lose miserably.
OKW, shreckblobs, abundance of AT sources, cheapest tech with too many freebies and doctrinal AI inf dependency since obers while potent, arrive late.

Pretty much most if not everything that created bad experience for players on both sides was addressed.

What will be left is to polish the details over next 2 surgery patches and we'll be in golden spot.

I agree, but we've been proven already that small changes on the long run are not enough, especially in regards to units that have fallen out of meta or were never part of it.
...

Not sure who this "we" is but a I can't agree. A simple changes like the suppression of the kubel or the crush on SWS trucks had dramatic impact on the game. A large amount of small changes, that are needed, is imo a far better way to go, at this point of the game.

Your post seem to indicate that the game is currently not balanced and imo it is. The problem thus has to do more with units being underused not that a faction is stronger than another. The current faction design can work in most cases. Trying to redesigning the faction by improving their weakness but not nerfing their strength is imo a steps in the wrong direction.

Take OKW for instance infantry blob will probably continue to dominate their play...

As I pointed out creating new strategies can be very easily achieved by minor adjustment to units. The changes introduced are changing faction design.

USF where design to have strong mainline infantry strong light vehicle play and weak support weapons.

Now their support weapons are buffed to a level that is close to Wer and that is faction redesign.

SU where designed to have weak stock units and very efficient doctrinal units.

Now their Penals are buff to riflemen levels in AI and another 4 stock units received buffs again that is faction redesigned.

OKW are all over the place receiving a huge buff in AI buff in their infantry again being redesigned.

That leaves UKF one of the factions needing redesign almost untouched and Wer probably in about the same place and probably struggling against the new Soviet and USF.

I understand what you mean, but in my opinion you're making a mistake right in the basis of your claims - you're assuming that INITIAL faction design is GOOD. So that means that ANY meaningful changes to it are BAD.

I disagree with that.
I don't like to be forced to play 3 rifleman into officer as USF (with extremely rare exceptions - for example, if I pick WC-51 commander).
I don't like to be forced into doctrines that have call-in infantry and armor as Soviets.

What if we assume that there is more space to improve factions design?

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally opposed to mirroring factions, but I think that all factions should be able to solve SAME problems but through DIFFERENT means.

This is a point on which we can argue: whether changes in upcoming patch are make factions too similar or not.

On the other hand, improvement that are easy to implement and could improve game quality allot more, are left forgotten and will probably remain so since the next patches will be trying to fix the problems this patch will create:

EFA armies veterancy are almost identical for most units of the same type and remain the same although most of this units have seen drastic changes.

Unit abilities remain mostly the same for EFA. I mean how many trip wire flares, tank that can cap and medic kits does player need?

Commander abilities remain the same although the new abilities are usually far better than the old ones.

And there is still a large number of bugs.

Dealing with this issues would change the meta with far less impact on overall balance. Exactly when does Relic intends to deal with this issues that are there for years?

Indeed there is a good portion of "lazy" design in veterancy abilities. Changing that would definitely bring joy for many players, but I don't think that these changes are enough make meta shifts.

About other things, well...
Power creep is just another way to sell new stuff. We can ask Relic to bring old thing in line with new ones or vice versa, but I wouldn't be so positive in expectations.

Bugs are bugs. While some of them are definitely affecting balance (some players decide not to double equip Infantry Section because they will drop their weapons) and again I don't feel that fixing most of them will change meta in a meaningful way.

Not sure who this "we" is but a I can't agree. A simple changes like the suppression of the kubel or the crush on SWS trucks had dramatic impact on the game. A large amount of small changes, that are needed, is imo a far better way to go, at this point of the game.

And then, we had changes to penals, cons, shreck accuracy that did a whooping nothing to improve the situation.

Yes there were some good small changes, but there were plenty of them that changed absolutely nothing until complete revamp of the unit came.

Kubel suppression was hardly a small change as it got more tanky and allowed to cap points-that is not a small change, that is a unit revamp.

Your post seem to indicate that the game is currently not balanced and imo it is. The problem thus has to do more with units being underused not that a faction is stronger than another. The current faction design can work in most cases. Trying to redesigning the faction by improving their weakness but not nerfing their strength is imo a steps in the wrong direction.

Take OKW for instance infantry blob will probably continue to dominate their play...

Game is somewhat balanced, but at the expense of multiple units and cancerous stuff we need to deal with.
Improvements in the mod will still keep it somewhat balanced, while expanding on diversity by resurrecting core units and lessening doctrinal dependencies, which is a true meta limiting factor.

And I don't agree on the last sentence.
Soviets are best example.

Maxim got nerfs, penals are getting buff.
SU-85 will be worse vs mediums, but better vs heavies, therefore doctrinal armor reliance is lessened.
T34/76, well, its a piece of shit since the day it lost OP ram, now it'll be an option as well, doctrinal 85 will still be vastly superior, but it won't be the only valid choice any longer.

The improvements the mod brings vastly out weight temporary side effects of implementation-adaptation to changes being biggest one.

Remember how everyone screamed that buffed T0 HMG42 was going to be OP?
It lasted for some time, then people got used to it and hardly anyone calls it this way any longer.

Same thing will happen with other units that got revamp or improvements.

I understand what you mean, but in my opinion you're making a mistake right in the basis of your claims - you're assuming that INITIAL faction design is GOOD. So that means that ANY meaningful changes to it are BAD.

I have not claimed that the initial faction design is good. If factions need redesign one would have to set that as his basic goal and work on that.

Trying to increase diversity by changing faction design is wrong because you are not actually redesign the faction just trying to patch the weakness of the faction without taking into account their strength.

As you pointed the current changes make Soviet USF and OKW more alike while leaving UKF as the odd one.

Lastly trying to redesign 3 faction at the same seems to me like a recipe for disaster...

Indeed there is a good portion of "lazy" design in veterancy abilities. Changing that would definitely bring joy for many players, but I don't think that these changes are enough make meta shifts.

I guess we have to disagree in this one, imo it can have a profound affect in balance. Imo UKF forces will demonstrate that, they changes they had did not redesign them but imo will have a deep impact in their game.

Kubel suppression was hardly a small change as it got more tanky and allowed to cap points-that is not a small change, that is a unit revamp.

I was reffing to change in the time to pin not the revamp of kubel. Was probably poorly written.

Focusing in details here is little importance here.

If factions need a redesign they need a redesign and that should be the primary goal of the patch and not unit diversity.

My point here is that Relic has been radically changing staff for year, imo they should take a minute fix the very large numbers of issues that have not been touched for years, see where they are and if needed redesign faction from the start. Else the same issues will remain with half the units and abilities in the game seeing very little action.

Instead of introducing small changes improving underused units, the changes it implement to OKW,SU and USF are so drastic and so out of faction design that are actually tantamount to redesigning these factions.

1) Shorter range mortar for USF, Penals buff and Su85 buffnerfs does not equate with faction redesign.

2) Even if it was, why would this be a bad thing?

3) OKW Schreck change was sorely needed, as anyone who ever dared to play a 4v4 will attest. Certain other stuff not so much, and indeed it is threatening to turn OKW into a faction that has it all and will open up a window of a few patches where balance ripples of these changes will be felt.

1) Shorter range mortar for USF, Penals buff and Su85 buffnerfs does not equate with faction redesign...

You might want to check the patch notes again.

USF HMG ATG received buffs, the USF mortar is not sort it range it is the slightly better from Wer one, which it considered the best in the game.

Soviet had 5 of their stock units buffed not 2.

The OKW shreck change did very little to change OWK blobs...

But again these are details and not important.

Redesign factions is not bad, although trying to redesign 3 of them at the same time can be.

And I have explained why imo other issues should be first addressed before going down that road.

It is the priority and way the redesigning is made not the redesign itself.

You might want to check the patch notes again.

USF HMG ATG received buffs, the USF mortar is not sort it range it is the slightly better from Wer one, which it considered the best in the game.

USF HMG arrives the latest, was most expensive and didn't do anything for the army that would justify getting it over another rifle.
It was a dead unit, it wasn't bad per se, but it was too little and too late.
Now its distinct from other HMGs and have added utility which all other HMGs except this one had.

Mortar provides additional option instead of pidgeonholing the faction into rifle spam.
Plus mortar on the field means less rifles on the field, I just can't see how you can complain about it.

Soviet had 5 of their stock units buffed not 2.

And only single one of them was actually useful and only because there was literally no other option, the SU-85.

The OKW shreck change did very little to change OWK blobs...

For one, it allowed AI vehicles to effectively kite it.

I see your further point, but we have a chance to break most limiting chains off certain factions, there is no reason not to go that way.

USF HMG arrives the latest,...

Details pls avoid them.

I see your further point, but we have a chance to break most limiting chains off certain factions, there is no reason not to go that way.

And it going to take several patch to achieve the current level of balance. In the meantime will be stuck with medic kits and trip wire flares.

It time to fix these issues not go thru another bigger circle.

LOL Vipper please just stay on official forums.

LOL Vipper please just stay on official forums.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute with your useful input.

USF HMG ATG received buffs, the USF mortar is not sort it range it is the slightly better from Wer one, which it considered the best in the game. Soviet had 5 of their stock units buffed not 2.

If 5 Soviet units were buffed, maybe it was because 5 soviet units were underused?

Relic starts correcting long standing problems, one by one. You complain that they should focus on correcting certain OTHER long-standing problems. Matter of priorities, but also of personal preference. If you're saying they are doing too much redesign all at once, well, welcome to Relic's patching process. It's nothing new.

Most of the implemented changes were needed and will enrich the game IMO. All of the buffed units needed a leg up. The heaviest machine gun of the game and the only one locked behind expensive side tech was a joke. Not to mention all those penals into T34/76 starts we've seen on ESL... oh wait.

Of course, some of the changes will give birth to unforeseen batshit OP strats and then get hypernerfed next month. Because that is how a Relic do.

At least I can offer a reply to one of your concerns. The reason Relic hasn't fixed some longstanding bugs yet is because they can't. 95% of the talent is working on DoW3. All that is left working on CoH2 is a skeleton team who almost certainly do not have the leverage to change the engine bugs. All they can do is tweak the lua game data.

I tend to agree that they should take a pause with their mega buff and nerfs and start fixing the easy issues left untouched for years.