Tiger without claws?

The tiger itself isn't that great but once you combine it with the support that ostheer can offer it becomes an unstoppable beast

Its funny because all allied TD received somekind of buff in the balance preview. While i have no problem how they perform against panthers, i think it messed up Tigers a bit. The tank itself is not bad, but the 300 frontal armor gets a bit outdated imo...

I agree with the general sentiment of Ostheer's repair being a greater limitation than any particular Ostheer vehicle. I played a match yesterday and four Pioniers seemed to take forever repairing a Tiger to full health (and it was only about half health).
In comparison with other factions:

OKW: tier-based mechanics (Mechanized HQ), engineers can upgrade to repair faster (Sturmpionier Minesweeper), and the doctrinal Emergency Repairs ability
USF: multiple engineer units, can repair criticals (Vehicle Crew, RETs, Assault Engineers)
UKF: engineers can upgrade to repair faster (Royal Engineers' Vickers LMG via Anvil Tactics)
RU: multiple repair options via doctrinal unlocks (Repair Station, Conscript Repair Kit, Vehicle Crew Repair Training ability)

I don't want Ostheer to be like other factions in that they need only a handful of guys to repair multiple vehicles though. I also prefer if this capability was found in doctrines rather than a non-doctrinal power, but that kind of defeats the purpose of mitigating drawbacks for doctrinal units like Tiger.

Perhaps one way to solve this is give the 251 halftrack the repair upgrade that the Ardennes Assault M3 Halftrack has? You basically swap reinforcement, transport and flame projector capabilities with a mobile repair aura. Being light vehicles they will still need to be protected, and being a 30 fuel investment may not always be a great alternative to having multiple Pioniers, but it does provide a unique way for Ostheer playesr to keep vehicles alive in the game; so far Relic hasn't done anything about the M3's cut feature, and giving it to any other faction doesn't make practical sense since they all have multiple repair alternatives.
The ability works by being an upgrade for the halftrack for munitions: when finished, the halftrack can be toggled to repair nearby vehicles (doesn't spawn mechanics, just a heal aura), but cannot move or fire weapons. In the campaign they can still transport and reinforce infantry though, this may or may not be retained if added to Ostheer.

Its funny because all allied TD received somekind of buff in the balance preview. While i have no problem how they perform against panthers, i think it messed up Tigers a bit. The tank itself is not bad, but the 300 frontal armor gets a bit outdated imo...

Stock TDs were underperforming vs heavies.

They got buffs, which are noticeable vs heavies and generally make meds stronger against them.

Tiger happens to be a heavy.

Tiger also happens to be a tank.

Tank destroyers are supposed to counter tanks, not struggle vs them.

Put these lines together for an enlightening revelation.

only thing i could see changing is lowering the CP requirement. the unit itself is dangerous but counterable with dedicated AT, AKA balanced

only thing i could see changing is lowering the CP requirement. the unit itself is dangerous but counterable with dedicated AT, AKA balanced

No heavy should arrive faster then it does.

They were pushed back over the years for a reason.

Its funny because all allied TD received somekind of buff in the balance preview. While i have no problem how they perform against panthers, i think it messed up Tigers a bit. The tank itself is not bad, but the 300 frontal armor gets a bit outdated imo...

1st world Axis problems

Maybe introduce new bunker upgrade of Ostheer? Upgrade which would provide engis for reparis and it would be limited to one at the time.

Tho small armor buff with vet 2 or 3 would be a bit helpful. 300 seems a bit to small. Maybe 340 with vet 2?

Stock TDs were underperforming vs heavies.

They got buffs, which are noticeable vs heavies and generally make meds stronger against them.

Ah, cool. Where is the Jagdpanzer IV buff as this thing bounces so many shots on the IS-2? After all it should be able to easily tackle heavy tanks on its own. Ah, I forgot it´s German so we don´t give a shit about it.

Tiger is underperforming and it is going to be worse in the next patch. No deflection stun, less rear armor, better T-34/76s, better SU-85 vs heavies. You don´t have to be a magician to foresee what the Tiger will perform like.

Ah, cool. Where is the Jagdpanzer IV buff as this thing bounces so many shots versus IS-2s? After all it should be able to easily tackle heavy tanks on its own. Ah, I forgot it´s German so we don´t give a shit about it.

In case you did not notce, SU85, Jackson and FF can bounce only popcorn shot at them.

And then you have JPIV with can bounce a bit more than popcorn with veterancy bonus for health to improve suravbility even higher.

Ah, cool. Where is the Jagdpanzer IV buff as this thing bounces so many shots on the IS-2? After all it should be able to easily tackle heavy tanks on its own. Ah, I forgot it´s German so we don´t give a shit about it.

Tiger is underperforming and it is going to be worse in the next patch. No deflection stun, less rear armor, better T-34/76s, better SU-85 vs heavies. You don´t have to be a magician to foresee what the Tiger will perform like.

No.

Its not.

It has greater range, RoF and penetration then most tanks in game.

You can't have a unit that can take a hit and punch hard at the same time, even IS-2 after the adjustment will still not be on pair when it comes to firepower.

Other heavies also will have less rear armor to the point where flanking meds will be a real, actual threat, should we buff IS-2 and comet then too?

And yeah, its easy to see how tiger will perform.
It'll perform as a heavy tank, not nazi super weapon.

Stock TDs were underperforming vs heavies.

They got buffs, which are noticeable vs heavies and generally make meds stronger against them.

Tiger happens to be a heavy.

Tiger also happens to be a tank.

Tank destroyers are supposed to counter tanks, not struggle vs them.

Put these lines together for an enlightening revelation.

Heavy tanks frontal armor moves on a wide-scale. Tiger is on the lower end of this scale.

Tiger was on its sweet spot before, but now the TD buff is an indirect nerf for all heavies AND panther.

Even before this Panther often provided a more cost efficient solution over Tiger. I think its pretty obvious how will these changes move the scale.

Put these lines together and see how this game works in practice.

Heavy tanks frontal armor moves on a wide-scale. Tiger is on the lower end of this scale.

And there is nothing wrong with it, given its gun is inferior only to that of KT.

Tiger was on its sweet spot before, but now the TD buff is an indirect nerf for all heavies AND panther.

TDs however were not. They were too unreliable out of the gate and too good when vetted.
Now they'll be more reliable out of the gate and more balance once vetted.

Yes, tiger and panther will feel that, because these are primary targets that benefited from lack of reliability of allied TDs before. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with that.

Tank destroyers counter tanks. Panther and Tiger are tanks, if you can't get in range to shoot back at them, you're SUPPOSED to be punished by TDs.

Even before this Panther often provided a more cost efficient solution over Tiger. I think its pretty obvious how will these changes move the scale.

Purely situational and dependent on opponent army comp.
Vs armor heavy builds, panther was superior, vs inf heavy builds, tiger was and is superior.
Tiger is not meant to be superior choice no matter what.
That goes for any other heavy as well.
Its not DoW2 super unit you'd always want to have, but another specific unit for specific scenario.

Put these lines together and see how this game works in practice.

You should take off these krupp steel eye patch armor plates and take your own advise.

dude, you are complaining about the SU-85 buff, but the Tiger was eaten alive by pre-buff SU-85s. They will reliably penetrate it now, but will have a slower TTK due to the huge rate of fire nerfs

And there is nothing wrong with it, given its gun is inferior only to that of KT.


TDs however were not. They were too unreliable out of the gate and too good when vetted.
Now they'll be more reliable out of the gate and more balance once vetted.

Yes, tiger and panther will feel that, because these are primary targets that benefited from lack of reliability of allied TDs before. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with that.

Tank destroyers counter tanks. Panther and Tiger are tanks, if you can't get in range to shoot back at them, you're SUPPOSED to be punished by TDs.


Purely situational and dependent on opponent army comp.
Vs armor heavy builds, panther was superior, vs inf heavy builds, tiger was and is superior.
Tiger is not meant to be superior choice no matter what.
That goes for any other heavy as well.
Its not DoW2 super unit you'd always want to have, but another specific unit for specific scenario.


You should take off these krupp steel eye patch armor plates and take your own advise.

Well, if something was barely used over Panther, yet still on its sweet spot, THEN receives an indirect nerf, and you cant see why it is a problem... i dont think im the one with an eye-patch here...

Sadly i cannot further simplify it. Some people thinks everything is fine, then relic comes along, make a couple of balance changes and they think its fine aswell..

Well, if something was barely used over Panther, yet still on its sweet spot, THEN receives an indirect nerf, and you cant see why it is a problem... i dont think im the one with an eye-patch here...

Panther receives exactly the same "indirect nerf".
Nothing changes in the balance of power.

No buffs needed.

Sadly i cannot further simplify it. Some people thinks everything is fine, then relic comes along, make a couple of balance changes and they think its fine aswell..

Likewise-some people constantly think units are underpowered and in need of buffs, because their intended hard counters hardcounter them.

Panther receives exactly the same "indirect nerf".
Nothing changes in the balance of power.

No buffs needed.


Likewise-some people constantly think units are underpowered and in need of buffs, because their intended hard counters hardcounter them.

In all your "nerf Axis" posts, a good number of them describe a real war you carry against Tiger. I think I can say without mistaking that there is no unit in COH2 you hate this much. I guess we can't receive any fair-mindedness from you not even when logic arguments are brought to the table. In present, OH is struggling to resist while fighting against any allied faction, you name it. In the future, Tiger will receive nerfs, while allied TDs are receiving buffs, and Tiger is not in a good place not even in present. On the other hand, what do you know? We will have a slight-improved IS2 because reasons. But, what can we say? It's Katitof we are talking about....

P.S. And that concludes my OH case. I will certainly not play this faction anymore until it will be playable. I see no reasons now, nor in balance preview mode, to pick OH over OKW.

Second P.S. Oh, I am such an "experienced" 1v1 player, especialy with soviets... Played against this guy 3 games in balance patch preview, he is same level as I am (okay maybe a little better) and guess what? Lost a 1v1 as OH against USF, barely lost a 1v1 as OKW vs Soviets, clearly won a 1v1 as Soviets vs OH..... But hey, what does this mean? Nothing, of course...

In all your "nerf Axis" posts, a good number of them describe a real war you carry against Tiger. I think I can say without mistaking that there is no unit in COH2 you hate this much. I guess we can't receive any fair-mindedness from you not even when logic arguments are brought to the table. In present, OH is struggling to resist while fighting against any allied faction, you name it. In the future, Tiger will receive nerfs, while allied TDs are receiving buffs, and Tiger is not in a good place not even in present. On the other hand, what do you know? We will have a slight-improved IS2 because reasons. But, what can we say? It's Katitof we are talking about....

Newsflash:

Opposing to groundless buffs =! calls for nerfs.

You don't OP units that are fine and just received buffs only because their hard counters will finally do their fucking job against said units-because that is the main theme of this thread.

Tiger is in perfect place at the moment and will remain in there after the patch.
No allied med can pen it reliably from the front and TDs will finally be able to do so.

Its not wunderwaffe it used to be before WFA and it will never again be, that time is OVER, the time where nothing else mattered once heavy hit the field is OVER and you should get OVER it already. Heavies are addition to your army, not replacement for it. Same counter principals apply to them as to any other tank in game.

Or you believe we should buff churchill, pershing and IS-2 because panther, JT and ele can counter them?
At the end, the reverse is the SOLE REPEATED ARGUMENT from tiger buff supporters.

There is no reason why a heavy tank should dominate the battlefield or be more resistant to long range tank destroyers. I think it is a leftover of the heavy call-in meta where everyone got the idea that a heavy tank is what your army should be built around. Tiger should be just that - a heavy tank. One of the options. You have 78 more popcap in your arsenal to supplement it with other units, including the best handheld AT which decimates dedicated enemy tank destroyers.

A Tiger is not too slow for its class, it has really good frontal armour, requires no teching, and its gun packs a really good anti infantry and antitank punch. What else do you want from it? To be more survivable against its hard counters?

If you feel the Tiger isn't worth its resource cost, don't go for it. Wehrmacht has a strong core army and a wide selection of commanders. But I guarantee you lots of players will still use the Tiger.

You just can't use it with impunity if someone invests heavily in end-tier tank destroyers (Su85, FF, M36). And this is precisely as it should be, IMO.