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Why Ostheer is currently not much fun in my opinion

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Crumbum
10 May 2016, 12:10 PM
#81
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 11:56 AMButcher
As I stated earlier: That was the initial design behind Ostheer. But now the lategame is mediocre at best. There is no punch in Ostheer armor. Now you lump behind early only to be on par lategame.

Highfive pointed it out: Everything Ostheer does, the Brits do better.


+1. Ost are a reactive faction for the early/mid game which is fine, but when it comes to the latter stages of a game where they are theoretically supposed to be better, they are placed on the back foot again because the power creep of not only the WFA but also brits, who can do what ost do but better.
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Katitof
10 May 2016, 12:28 PM
#82
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:04 PMJohnnyB


This sounds nicely in theory but I would like to see you doing that against an equally skilled oponnent and win 50% of times.
What you described above = losing initiative early game and still trying to win. Good luck with that.

Unless you play osttruppen into fast T2 vs brits, you don't really have any initiative in the first place.
Until T2 is up its all about not losing your native fuel.

You can be more aggressive to a point if you get early sniper only.

Ost never was dictating(or even meant to) pace of early game unless it was OP AF(first month HMG42 into flame HT or march deployment grens).

Vs sov, its really who plays better.
Vs USF it was always a struggle, because USF can do only one single unit, which needs to be strong enough to overcome grens+support.
Vs brits they do extremely well with osttruppen and underpriced 222.

Plus, Hans seems to be doing just fine.

Its not about losing unitiative, because there is only one MU where ost have it, but about not losing T2 tech race by not losing fuel early on.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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mortiferum
10 May 2016, 12:34 PM
#83
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Posts: 571

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:28 PMKatitof

Unless you play osttruppen into fast T2 vs brits, you don't really have any initiative in the first place.
Until T2 is up its all about not losing your native fuel.

You can be more aggressive to a point if you get early sniper only.

Ost never was dictating(or even meant to) pace of early game unless it was OP AF(first month HMG42 into flame HT or march deployment grens).

Vs sov, its really who plays better.
Vs USF it was always a struggle, because USF can do only one single unit, which needs to be strong enough to overcome grens+support.
Vs brits they do extremely well with osttruppen and underpriced 222.

Plus, Hans seems to be doing just fine.

Its not about losing unitiative, because there is only one MU where ost have it, but about not losing T2 tech race by not losing fuel early on.


Minor problem.

Ostheer can hold as long as they like vs USSR and USF because they are also not too good at holding land. This means Ostheer can hold, then counter attack (Defensive vs Offensive)

On the other hand, holding against UKF guarantees you a mortar emplacement and bofor outside your base. So you kinda need to push, but then cant push but need to push. Mortar emplacements have no counter (Mortar emplacement >>>>>> Mortar team) for Ost, and have sufficient range to threaten more than just the VPs and fuel if you are too defensive.
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JohnnyB
10 May 2016, 12:35 PM
#84
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:28 PMKatitof


You can be more aggressive to a point if you get early sniper only.



Which in my opinion is mandatory, to bad I am bad with it. A defensive stance is not going to have winning chances unless your opponent will bleed hard enough to make it count.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:28 PMKatitof

Plus, Hans seems to be doing just fine.



Let hans play only with grenadiers and me play with whatever i want and he will still beat me :D. That proves nothing, top players are top players.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
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Katitof
10 May 2016, 12:47 PM
#85
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:35 PMJohnnyB


Which in my opinion is mandatory, to bad I am bad with it. A defensive stance is not going to have winning chances unless your opponent will bleed hard enough to make it count.

You're not supposed to be defensive for the whole game.
You need to have decent fuel control until you get T2 and pump one of the lights to harass and push with.
222 is underpriced for current stats AF, so just use it in pairs to counter everything except AT guns and dedicated TD lights and 251 is getting a powerful buff too.


Let hans play only with grenadiers and me play with whatever i want and he will still beat me :D. That proves nothing, top players are top players.

You seem to forget that top players also play against other top players and best them, that includes Hans :hansWUT:
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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JohnnyB
10 May 2016, 12:55 PM
#86
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:47 PMKatitof


222 is underpriced for current stats AF, so just use it in pairs to counter everything except AT guns and dedicated TD lights and 251 is getting a powerful buff too.



Except every fuel drop feels like counting for OH currently more than for other factions. Guards or even riflemen / REs with zooks will simply negate your 222 play and if you build a pair of it, you will invest resources in something that won't survive long in such conditions. Or, if they survive, they will just duck most of the remaining game time. Like I said, in theory things are fine, but actually they just aren't.
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
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Esxile
10 May 2016, 13:09 PM
#87
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:55 PMJohnnyB


Except every fuel drop feels like counting for OH currently more than for other factions. Guards or even riflemen / REs with zooks will simply negate your 222 play and if you build a pair of it, you will invest resources in something that won't survive long in such conditions. Or, if they survive, they will just duck most of the remaining game time. Like I said, in theory things are fine, but actually they just aren't.


Planning as a strategy around not building X or Y unit because it doesn't survive late game is probably the root of 50% of your lose.

The right question is how do you balance the price you pay / the price you make your opponent pay to counter and bleed mp from it.
2x 222 is a small price investment in comparison with the price Sov or USF pay to counter it. 420mp and 30 fuel, that's nothing if you micro it well. Zooks cost 15 fuel to unlock and 50ammo per model equiped, Guard cost a doctrine choice and 1 squad more than your 222mp price.
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JohnnyB
10 May 2016, 13:15 PM
#88
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 13:09 PMEsxile


Planning as a strategy around not building X or Y unit because it doesn't survive late game is probably the root of 50% of your lose.


That's an interesting theory.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 13:09 PMEsxile


Guard cost a doctrine choice.



Ummm.... what amount of mp/fuel/amo do you exactly pay for picking a doctrine...?! Especialy when guards doctrines are not bad at all while the unit itself is a verry good unit.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 13:09 PMEsxile

(costs) 1 squad more than your 222mp price


Do you care to explain this concept?
BeefSurge wrote:
A lot of people have an image of how they want a faction to play, leading to problems. This is why you have people complaining about lack of Soviet bunkers, why T34/76 sucks, why Cons don't scale, Grens don't get normal grenades, Muricans don't get heavy tank, OKW laser weapons and Die Glock Death Bell, etc.
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Esxile
10 May 2016, 13:58 PM
#89
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 13:15 PMJohnnyB


That's an interesting theory.



Do you care to explain this concept?


Guards do not cost only 210mp, on the mp war 2x222 is cheaper than 2xGuards. Using your 2x222 combined you'll eventually bleed him harder than he does to you. Just be smart enough to not lose your 222 too quickly.
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elchino7
10 May 2016, 18:04 PM
#90
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Although it's not necessary to pull 2x222 against SU, specially if he has Guards on their commander loadout.

It has more merit against either USF or UKF but still, imo, too much commitment.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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Thunderhun
10 May 2016, 23:33 PM
#91
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Why not 5 men Pio squads? They cost 200 and sometimes lose vs CE, RE.

It would help preventing flanks, increasing repair times, base building, mine laying etc.

PS: Someone pls nerf the stug-e, that shit is OP af with its insane vet and TWP.
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FalseAlarm
11 May 2016, 00:33 AM
#92
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Posts: 182

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Brits are your problem. Remove/Nerf them to the ground and everything will be fine.


Ostheer is the second strongest faction in game. Thanks to the 42 and paks/stug walls. Even the slightest buff will render USF ded.

And 2x 222s solve most of your troubles aginst lights, mediums (if u can get into their rear).
usfusfostheerostheer
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tightrope
11 May 2016, 00:41 AM
#93
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By the time you can get a medium tank out you have usually lost due to other factions having a light vehicle advantage. Hopefully the tech cost reductions will open up teching again, because relying on the puma and stug e is getting stale.
Playercard of tightrope

1v1: P2v2: None3v3: None4v4: P
1v1: P2v2: None3v3: P4v4: P
1v1: P2v2: P3v3: P4v4: P
1v1: P2v2: P3v3: P4v4: P


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Esxile
11 May 2016, 07:09 AM
#94
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 00:41 AMtightrope
By the time you can get a medium tank out you have usually lost due to other factions having a light vehicle advantage.


Weird comment, I have see many matchs cast by you and other casters from Coh2.org where Ostheer players were able to field 3 or more Pz4s while this was not true for their opponents. I had a game yesterday where I field 2x 222 and maybe 5 or 6 stugs + 2 Command tanks.
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Aerohank
11 May 2016, 07:21 AM
#95
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jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2016, 12:34 PMmortiferum


Minor problem.

Ostheer can hold as long as they like vs USSR and USF because they are also not too good at holding land. This means Ostheer can hold, then counter attack (Defensive vs Offensive)

On the other hand, holding against UKF guarantees you a mortar emplacement and bofor outside your base. So you kinda need to push, but then cant push but need to push. Mortar emplacements have no counter (Mortar emplacement >>>>>> Mortar team) for Ost, and have sufficient range to threaten more than just the VPs and fuel if you are too defensive.


Why would you play defensively against UKF? Get a sniper, force them off their fuel. Laugh as they have no early game counter (universal carrier is the worst sniper hunter in the game).
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Blalord
11 May 2016, 12:13 PM
#96
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 07:21 AMAerohank


Why would you play defensively against UKF? Get a sniper, force them off their fuel. Laugh as they have no early game counter (universal carrier is the worst sniper hunter in the game).


And get counter sniped mins later
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Katitof
11 May 2016, 12:15 PM
#97
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 12:13 PMBlalord


And get counter sniped mins later

Or you could YOLO that 222 into AT-helpless brit.
Not like there is anything able to threaten it before bofors or AEC, in case of latter, just get 2nd 222 and hardcounter AEC for under half of its cost.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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Blalord
11 May 2016, 12:42 PM
#98
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 12:15 PMKatitof

Or you could YOLO that 222 into AT-helpless brit.
Not like there is anything able to threaten it before bofors or AEC, in case of latter, just get 2nd 222 and hardcounter AEC for under half of its cost.


Mines, AT gun, not Yoloing with AEC ? Same way OST had to handle Stuart and AEC in the past.

Btw i am not saying 222 does not need a little cost increase, i am just argumenting that ost sniper against Brit is not obvious as against USF
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Katitof
11 May 2016, 12:57 PM
#99
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 12:42 PMBlalord


Mines, AT gun, not Yoloing with AEC ? Same way OST had to handle Stuart and AEC in the past.

Ost in the past didn't had 15 fuel light tank :) But I see your point, ost is fuel heavy in early game, brits are mp heavy.

Btw i am not saying 222 does not need a little cost increase, i am just argumenting that ost sniper against Brit is not obvious as against USF

Yeah, that is obvious.
Can still make a difference at these first 5 minutes before brit sniper hits the field.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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mortiferum
11 May 2016, 14:19 PM
#100
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 May 2016, 07:21 AMAerohank


Why would you play defensively against UKF? Get a sniper, force them off their fuel. Laugh as they have no early game counter (universal carrier is the worst sniper hunter in the game).


Someone mentioned that you should play defensively to win as Ostheer, I merely replied.
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