Bazookas

hi there,

when playing with or against usf i have the feeling, that bazookas are either a tad too spammable or a tad too good against heavies like the tiger or the kt.

according to coh2-stats the bazooka has 80 damage and 130 penetration at near, while the tiger has 300 armor, which means that a little less than half of the shots penetrate iirc.
at far, the penetration is still 110, while the puma for example has only 80 at far (though far is more far for the puma). another comparison would be to the maingun of the panzer IV, where the bazooka has better penetration at all ranges.

anyway, i would propose a slightly higher penetration dropoff, something like 130->115->100. that way, good tank micro and kiting would be rewarded.

They are cheap and weak. They have only 66% the strength of a schreck.

that way, good tank micro and kiting would be rewarded.

tiger has 45-50 range, zooks have 35. Therefore good tank micro is already rewarded. Also at 35 range their accuracy is 0,025, for instance they have a 65% chance to hit a tiger and 36% to penetrate, which means a zook has a 23% chance of dealing 80 damage at 35 range per shot.

Good idea, but people will say: "it will support blob-gaming, NO!". I guess, with zooks should be same system like wtih BAR and M1919.

Bar is non-doc - less powerful, M1919 - doctrinal and powerful.

M9 is non-doc - less powerful, M18 recoilless - doctrinal and powerful.

What do you think about it?

They are cheap and weak. They have only 66% the strength of a schreck.



tiger has 45-50 range, zooks have 35. Therefore good tank micro is already rewarded.

yes, they are cheap, but they are not terribly weak. they perform really well against lights and mediums.

do you know what the sightrange of the tiger is? i cannot find it on coh2 stats. but i doubt it is as much as his range. additionally, on some maps, mostly city maps, you may not be able to be at 45 range all the time. (one particular game where i felt that the zooks pen was a tad too high was on düsseldorf)

this would not be a major nerf in the performance against lights and mediums, but it would act a little more like the zook in vcoh

The main reason bazookas, piats, even PTRS deal so much damage vs heavies is not due to penetration; it's due to deflection damage.

When a handheld AT thing fails to penetrate, it still deals 25% of its damage (for PIATs that's 66%). Thus, decreasing penetration won't really help.

They are cheap and weak. They have only 66% the strength of a schreck.

If we completely disregard deflection damage, each bazooka only has 47% of the strength of a schreck, for medium armour and above (you get 47% by multiplying penetration with damage).

Now, if we also want to account for deflection, we need to fix armour to a value. Vs a Tiger (armour 300), the average damage per shot for Schrecks/Zooks is the following:
- Schrecks: 81 (56% chance for penetrating damage: 120, or 44% chance for deflection damage: 120 / 4 = 30)
- Bazooka: 44

Thus, a bazooka rocket only deals 54% of the damage that a schreck would deal vs a Tiger. As the amount of armour increases further, we can expect the difference between Schreck and Bazooka decrease, and slowly converge to 66%.

But, then again, we haven't accounted for the reload ratio. But then, nobody ever sticks around for a 2nd or a 3rd shot.

The main reason bazookas, piats, even PTRS deal so much damage vs heavies is not due to penetration; it's due to deflection damage.

When a handheld AT thing fails to penetrate, it still deals 25% of its damage (for PIATs that's 66%). Thus, decreasing penetration won't really help.

But, then again, we haven't accounted for the reload ratio. But then, nobody ever sticks around for a 2nd or a 3rd shot.

i dont want to make this a zooks vs schrecks discussion, but dont forget that the cheapest option to get a schreck is for 90 munitions, while you get 2 free zooks on your captaion and your m20 crew and additional ones only cost 50 iirc

maybe changing deflection damage might be another viable way.

and i disagree, the rifle blob fighting your tiger will stay for a second and third shot. and the 30% faster reload for zooks (if i got the formula right) comes in very handy there

yes, they are cheap, but they are not terribly weak. hey perform really well against lights and mediums.

Everything does fine vs lights and you can feel the inferiority to shrecks vs medium.
2 zooks are effective vs lights, but won't get you anywhere against meds or better.

do you know what the sightrange of the tiger is? i cannot find it on coh2 stats. but i doubt it is as much as his range. additionally, on some maps, mostly city maps, you may not be able to be at 45 range all the time. (one particular game where i felt that the zooks pen was a tad too high was on düsseldorf)

Well, you shouldn't YOLO a lone tiger anyway, plus with how cheap and how durable 222 is, sight range should never be an issue for ost player.

this would not be a major nerf in the performance against lights and mediums, but it would act a little more like the zook in vcoh

Vcoh had recoilless rifles as well.
In CoH2 we have just zooks, but they have more balanced performance(pretty much middle ground between vcoh zooks and RRs).

Still, the only situation where zooks are really dangerous is if there is like 8 of them, but in that case you can just a-move your infantry over his zooks.

Well, you shouldn't YOLO a lone tiger anyway, plus with how cheap and how durable 222 is, sight range should never be an issue for ost player.

i didnt yolo a lone tiger, i advanced with the most heavy vehicle as spearhead in front of the support. should i rather advance with my panzerwerfer at front?? yes, the 222 is nice, but on duüsseldorf? you just said that zooks are effective against light vehicles! do you really believe i should build a 222 on a city map against a zook+bar blob??

Still, the only situation where zooks are really dangerous is if there is like 8 of them, but in that case you can just a-move your infantry over his zooks.

except if you are wehrmacht on a city map and they have 5 rifleman with zooks and some bars at high vet, you cant just a-move over their blob.

do you really believe that a !small! penetration nerf is unjust? it would not matter that much vs mediums, only against heavies

tiger has 45-50 range, zooks have 35. Therefore good tank micro is already rewarded. Also at 35 range their accuracy is 0,025, for instance they have a 65% chance to hit a tiger and 36% to penetrate, which means a zook has a 23% chance of dealing 80 damage at 35 range per shot.

This guy did the math for you. If you can read this and still complain about bazookas there is no hope for you.

I think what OP wants to say is not that zooks are too strong essentially, but rather that they are too effectively spammable in a blob (a-move tactics)
Also the "higher range" argument doesn't neccessarily apply on urban maps

i didnt yolo a lone tiger, i advanced with the most heavy vehicle as spearhead in front of the support. should i rather advance with my panzerwerfer at front?? yes, the 222 is nice, but on duüsseldorf? you just said that zooks are effective against light vehicles! do you really believe i should build a 222 on a city map against a zook+bar blob??

Gee, if only 222 had actually bigger sight range then tiger, maybe then it was possible to drive it behind it and still see further?
Damn, too bad that none of the tiger doctrines have recon planes, this sounds like a useful thing.
Or if maybe wehr had an infantry unit with increased sight range that could be moved next to tiger, hell, this unit could maybe even repair it
Or if any of the above proved to be a too much micro tax for a quality of player who plays against non valid 5 rifle blobs and can't overcome them it'd be great if the map could be veto'd or something.

except if you are wehrmacht on a city map and they have 5 rifleman with zooks and some bars at high vet, you cant just a-move over their blob.

Make up your mind.
Is there enough zooks to actually threaten the tiger or are there 5(yeah, because anyone sane or better then 4 digit rank gets 5 nfBarton rifles with mixed setup? You can't really have both.

do you really believe that a !small! penetration nerf is unjust? it would not matter that much vs mediums, only against heavies

Yes.
Believe it or not, but not all units are equally viable on all maps.
As mad as it may sound to you-there are maps where getting a tiger is not the smartest choice *gasp!*

e:
Yeah, so I've checked your pc after writing this post, its pretty much what I've written, L2P issue for 4 digit rank player.

Come on people!
If you have 4 digit rank and struggle to get over 50% WL ratio, the balance is NOT your problem, YOU are.

4 digit rank? Katitof you need to learn how to count past 3

4 digit rank? Katitof you need to learn how to count past 3

I'm judging players skill by their worst, not their best

You can have a couple of lucky games where your opponent was just potato, but your worst rank tells more story as you obviously aren't that lucky there, so its all on your own ability

So Luvnest is a 3 digit player because he is level 2hundert something with some random dude

So Luvnest is a 3 digit player because he is level 2hundert something with some random dude

Yes, because Luvnest is CLEARLY mainly team game player.

This guy did the math for you. If you can read this and still complain about bazookas there is no hope for you.

a) math is not balance. i did some math aswell, and it doent mean that im right either...
b) im not complaining. im !asking! whether players had the same experience and proposing a very minor nerf. this is (hopefully) miles away from the usual PLS NERF OP ALLIES cries

Gee, if only 222 had actually bigger sight range then tiger, maybe then it was possible to drive it behind it and still see further?

i dont know about you, but my 222 does not see through houses.

Damn, too bad that none of the tiger doctrines have recon planes, this sounds like a useful thing.

some have, some dont. and its not like the recon plane is free and always available

Or if maybe wehr had an infantry unit with increased sight range that could be moved next to tiger, hell, this unit could maybe even repair it

again, my pioneers cant see through houses. guess my VAC bans pioneers with wallhacks....
and its not like pioneers die easily when repairing under fire

Or if any of the above proved to be a too much micro tax for a quality of player who plays against non valid 5 rifle blobs and can't overcome them it'd be great if the map could be veto'd or something.

well, guess what, we normally veto düsseldorf. unfortunately there are loads of bad maps and you cant veto them all

Make up your mind.
Is there enough zooks to actually threaten the tiger or are there 5(yeah, because anyone sane or better then 4 digit rank gets 5 nfBarton rifles with mixed setup? You can't really have both.

4 rifles, one captain, one re. (so rather 5-6 squads, my wording was false, i admit) thats 8 zooks and 4 bars if fully equipped.

Yes.
Believe it or not, but not all units are equally viable on all maps.
As mad as it may sound to you-there are maps where getting a tiger is not the smartest choice *gasp!*

yeah, i probably should have gone for the elefant. you can count on it on city maps. no really, you can!
or i could have gotten a heavier tank than the tiger, that would have been a great choice, you are totally right

e:
Yeah, so I've checked your pc after writing this post, its pretty much what I've written, L2P issue for 4 digit rank player.

last time i checked, 925 had only three digits. but well, probably a lot has changed since i heard my last mathmatics lecture at university three days ago. on a sidenote, my mate and i didnt play for over a year and are getting back at it again now. the +7 streak is a sign of the direction we are taking. lets see what our rank will be after the "getting back" phase

Come on people!
If you have 4 digit rank and struggle to get over 50% WL ratio, the balance is NOT your problem, YOU are.

not necessarily. im by no means a proplayer in LoL, but more often than not i can see balance issues. being a pro helps, but self reflection is very important aswell
do you mind showing your own playercard, proving that you are not just a forum warrior?

You can have a couple of lucky games where your opponent was just potato, but your worst rank tells more story as you obviously aren't that lucky there

on a sidenote: we were top 1000 with allies before the last match, but decided to change factions up completely for that one. and again, playercard pls!

I'm judging players skill by their worst, not their best

Hahaha, to bad my 1v1 325 place with brits after 10 games in the past cannot make me a good player, but only showed how OP brits were! And I don't even want to think what will happen if I play 1v1 with soviets, probably I will have to teach Katitof how to a-move those maxims!

Have you ever tried kiting with Ostwind, sniper or straight up combined arms MG? I don't think bazookas are much of a problem, especially against fully supported heavy tank.

But if you Yolo your heavy tank into infantry equipped shrek or bazooka than we all know what will happen next.

Hahaha, to bad my 1v1 325 place with brits after 10 games in the past cannot make me a good player[..]

That's because 325 on the ladder is not worth bragging about.