Bofors

I just beat Mr Cancer himself in a random 2's game.

Probably worth a watch to get some ideas on how to beat it.

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  PaRaNoMiA dinner Box

  Bissonnette ~TAB~ Puppetmaster

  Beating Mr Cancer

  by: Puppetmaster map: Across the Rhine

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My general strategy was to use German Mechanized Doctrine (4CP Smoke Bombs, 5 CP Spotting Scopes, LeFh & Command Tank).

Lefh is the key to emplacement spam in longer games, should you be able to survive till 8 CP. It is pretty difficult for a Brit to keep up repairs with on map firing at you. Panthers are also pretty important as well as you need tanks that can safely park in front of a bofors.

I started out with a Gren heavy build, skipping an mg entirely. Knowing he would go emplacements (its all he ever does) an MG isn't all that useful if its forced away by a mortar constantly. With Grens you are able to keep mobility which is pretty key.

I then fast teched to T2 and got 2x 222's and a PaK out. 222's are a great unit because of the mobility on a map like that they can offer. They kill any pesky Brens that are still around. Once they hit vet 2 with spotting scopes, you have a nice map hack.

My next plan was just to decap their fuel while trying to hold ours. Because of all the fuel invested in emplacements + them not always holding their fuel, he was only able to get a Cromwell out 1 min before I had a panther. I also built 3 fuel caches as soon as I could to speed up the panther.

Once my Panther was built I pretty much had enough resources to build an LeFh straight away. Once I started firing he ended up quitting (rage ? ). They probably could have won it just by VP camping but his emplacement spam was effectively dead once that was on the field.

My ally did have some issues with the USF down south at some points - would have liked to have helped him out more but it is important to try to deny them fuel as well as minimize bleed to get the above units out.

He also tried to use MHT & mortars to kill the emplacements. However counter barrage was causing him problems (this should mostly be fixed when the patch hits). Once counter barrage is less effective / spammable, them heavy indirect fire will be more viable.

Spotting scopes + paks are a decent way of taking out bofos. You need to bait his barrage though so your pak can safely fire.

I just beat Mr Cancer himself in a random 2's game.

Probably worth a watch to get some ideas on how to beat it.

•  
  

  0

  VS

  PaRaNoMiA dinner Box

  Bissonnette ~TAB~ Puppetmaster

  Beating Mr Cancer

  by: Puppetmaster map: Across the Rhine

  1

  -

My general strategy was to use German Mechanized Doctrine (4CP Smoke Bombs, 5 CP Spotting Scopes, LeFh & Command Tank).

Lefh is the key to emplacement spam in longer games, should you be able to survive till 8 CP. It is pretty difficult for a Brit to keep up repairs with on map firing at you. Panthers are also pretty important as well as you need tanks that can safely park in front of a bofors.

I started out with a Gren heavy build, skipping an mg entirely. Knowing he would go emplacements (its all he ever does) an MG isn't all that useful if its forced away by a mortar constantly. With Grens you are able to keep mobility which is pretty key.

I then fast teched to T2 and got 2x 222's and a PaK out. 222's are a great unit because of the mobility on a map like that they can offer. They kill any pesky Brens that are still around. Once they hit vet 2 with spotting scopes, you have a nice map hack.

My next plan was just to decap their fuel while trying to hold ours. Because of all the fuel invested in emplacements + them not always holding their fuel, he was only able to get a Cromwell out 1 min before I had a panther. I also built 3 fuel caches as soon as I could to speed up the panther.

Once my Panther was built I pretty much had enough resources to build an LeFh straight away. Once I started firing he ended up quitting (rage ? ). They probably could have won it just by VP camping but his emplacement spam was effectively dead once that was on the field.

My ally did have some issues with the USF down south at some points - would have liked to have helped him out more but it is important to try to deny them fuel as well as minimize bleed to get the above units out.

He also tried to use MHT & mortars to kill the emplacements. However counter barrage was causing him problems (this should mostly be fixed when the patch hits). Once counter barrage is less effective / spammable, them heavy indirect fire will be more viable.

Spotting scopes + paks are a decent way of taking out bofos. You need to bait his barrage though so your pak can safely fire.

Not to rain on your parade but.... you guys were losing 85-498 VPs with almost no map control until the brit player dropped from the game. Until that point you had killed 0 of his 3 emplacements. Maybe you meant to show how strong the brit cheese is LOL.

Side note: it's hilarious to watch an un-braced bofors almost outheal the damage from 2 mortar HT flame barrages + normal attacks with only repairs from the forward assembly engineers. Good shit.

If you still struggle with emplacements you need to either A) Get good, or B) Quit the game now. You're terrible.

Seems fine to me. Flaming and not providing a single tip how to do it.

Not to rain on your parade but.... you guys were losing 85-498 VPs with almost no map control until the brit player dropped from the game. Until that point you had killed 0 of his 3 emplacements. Maybe you meant to show how strong the brit cheese is LOL.

Side note: it's hilarious to watch an un-braced bofors almost outheal the damage from 2 mortar HT flame barrages + normal attacks with only repairs from the forward assembly engineers. Good shit.

For the first 10 - 15 minutes of the game we had more map control than they did, I was also doing a decent job of harassing their fuel point and had 2 caches up by 11 minutes (a 3rd by 12 minutes though it wasn't alive for that long) so didnt need to have total map control (they hadn't built any caches).

I deliberately didn't attack the emplacements before I was ready because it drains my man power / resources and feeds the emplacements vet. As you saw from my ally his MHT / mortars were getting attacked by counter barrage.

At 20 minutes when my LeFh was ready I had:

3x LMG Grens (1x Vet 3 2x Vet 2)
Sweeper Pios
Pak40
2x 222 /w Spotting Scopes (Vet 2)
Panther
LeFH

He had:

2x IS No weapons (Vet 2)
Cromwell (Vet 1)
3 Emplacments
2 Mines up, Not in the most optimal places. No ATG.

The Brit was pretty much done at this point. He has pretty much no army to deal with mine and my LeFH means his emplacements are on borrowed time (though I cleared the northern Bofors without my LeFH). Sure we had lost a lot of VP's at this point, but whats the point to drain my MP attacking his emplacements, delaying my Panther / LeFH and feeding his emplacements vet.

A Win is a win whether its at 500 VPs or 1 VP. My ally seemed to have problems with the USF Blob. If he was doing better vs that then map control would have been better and our VP's would not have drained that low. Point still stands though that we won.

Care to share your replay vs top 25 ranked 2v2 Brit? How about your playercard?


Also as a general comment, I don't think people who do not play all factions (specifically Allies or Brits) at all should be commenting on balance.

Bulgakov, please reiterate your argument to me. Because as far as I can tell, the only thing you have said to me was you cannot flank a Bofors. Since then, I have been defending my position saying that if you haven't denied it strategically, a well executed flank is the only, if not desperate, tactic available, barring a stockpiling of indirect fire. The only one being dismissive is you, we can both agree it is desperate, but where is your alternative? And I apologize if in my defense I have missed it whilst standing on my soapbox.

My arguments:

The bofors is far too strong and is spoiling gameplay.

You cannot "flank" a bofors in the traditional sense of getting to its blindspot as it has 360 degree facing.

There is no cost-effective alternative.


Lastly, You need to play against it to understand. Throwing out opinions from an ivory tower is pointless. Try a few games and then come talk about flanking a bofors.

I can´t believe people are still defending brace. SolidSteel was on point. It is a get out of jail free card. No skill involved. Invincibility when you got caught with your pants down.

Its a STATIC EMPLACEMENT.

You want people to micro it around the map?

What kind of skill you expect with managing a friggin fortification?

Using brace against right attacks is the skill part. If you press it the moment anything attacks you, you'll lose emplacement 40 seconds later.

For the first 10 - 15 minutes of the game we had more map control than they did, I was also doing a decent job of harassing their fuel point and had 2 caches up by 11 minutes (a 3rd by 12 minutes though it wasn't alive for that long) so didnt need to have total map control (they hadn't built any caches).

I deliberately didn't attack the emplacements before I was ready because it drains my man power / resources and feeds the emplacements vet. As you saw from my ally his MHT / mortars were getting attacked by counter barrage.

At 20 minutes when my LeFh was ready I had:

3x LMG Grens (1x Vet 3 2x Vet 2)
Sweeper Pios
Pak40
2x 222 /w Spotting Scopes (Vet 2)
Panther
LeFH

He had:

2x IS No weapons (Vet 2)
Cromwell (Vet 1)
3 Emplacments
2 Mines up, Not in the most optimal places. No ATG.

The Brit was pretty much done at this point. He has pretty much no army to deal with mine and my LeFH means his emplacements are on borrowed time (though I cleared the northern Bofors without my LeFH). Sure we had lost a lot of VP's at this point, but whats the point to drain my MP attacking his emplacements, delaying my Panther / LeFH and feeding his emplacements vet.

A Win is a win whether its at 500 VPs or 1 VP. My ally seemed to have problems with the USF Blob. If he was doing better vs that then map control would have been better and our VP's would not have drained that low. Point still stands though that we won.

Care to share your replay vs top 25 ranked 2v2 Brit? How about your playercard?


Also as a general comment, I don't think people who do not play all factions (specifically Allies or Brits) at all should be commenting on balance.

I do agree about your tactics here, actually it is kind of a solution, but it also means exactly that, you pretty much give up untill heavy armor/artillery form more than 20 min cause he placed down a bofors, understanding that you simply have no real way of facing the emplacement and start to stall for quite a long time and use harass tactics cause there's just simply no outplaying the emplacement itself, but running around it.

And while its a sensible strategy, its very map based and situational while requiring much more planning execution and micro on your part, that brit, while losing, the only thing he had to do the entire game to force you to play like that, was placing a bofors on the ground.

Its a STATIC EMPLACEMENT.

You want people to micro it around the map?

What kind of skill you expect with managing a friggin fortification?

Using brace against right attacks is the skill part. If you press it the moment anything attacks you, you'll lose emplacement 40 seconds later.

Ok so its a static emplacement and it cant move so it needs brace to manage on the battlefield well then where is the brace for Ost bunkers USF fighting positions Pak 43s and 2cm flak emplacements (that is if anyone ever built 2cm flak emplacements) and why cant British emplacements be decrewed like other static units because honestly that alone could make them a lot more balanced.

Ok so its a static emplacement and it cant move so it needs brace to manage on the battlefield well then where is the brace for Ost bunkers USF fighting positions Pak 43s and 2cm flak emplacements (that is if anyone ever built 2cm flak emplacements)

Probably in the same place where huge hitbox and bonus dmg modifier vs anything that isn't infantry rifle

and why cant British emplacements be decrewed like other static units because honestly that alone could make them a lot more balanced.

For the same reason coh1 brit emplacements couldn't be decrewed.
You pay and rely on them too much to have them hardcountered by a single sniper or small arms fire.

Fortifications for other armies is a small fluffy doctrinal addition, for UKF, like it or not, its a playstyle choice using 1/3 of your stock options.

Plus, its not like you can decrew MG bunkers or schwerer hq either.

For the same reason coh1 brit emplacements couldn't be decrewed.

Excuse me, a poor noob, but in CoH1 You COULD decrew brit emplacements. All of them. I did it like, 2 months ago, when I last played CoH1.

Oh, and about the Flak HQ and MG nest - MG nest cannot turn, and Flak HQ costs a shitton of fuel and manpower and is a tier building. And has no brace nor it can make a barrage to counter the ground-attack AT guns.

Excuse me, a poor noob, but in CoH1 You COULD decrew brit emplacements. All of them. I did it like, 2 months ago, when I last played CoH1.

They had abandon chance at low hp.
CoH2 emplacements had that too, but there was some odd behavior with it(for example when it occurred during brace) so it was removed and you can only destroy it now.

That still is a different type of abandonment then, say, PaK43.

Oh, and about the Flak HQ and MG nest - MG nest cannot turn, and Flak HQ costs a shitton of fuel and manpower and is a tier building. And has no brace nor it can make a barrage to counter the ground-attack AT guns.

I was just giving the closest equivalent examples

Obviously it makes no sense for tech structure to get abandoned, but just like shwerer is not a gun platform with infantry, but a whole "unit", the deal is with emplacements, its a whole unit, not a crew on a support weapon.

Brace exist as a preservation mechanic from instant wipes, but you also have positive dmg modifier from explosives, ballistics and flames.

It may not be the best mechanic around and sure a lot of people hate it, but, loosely quoting Brad while he was still at Relic, "few loud people who do not like to play against certain playstyle or unit is not a reason for the playstyle to not be a valid choice and option".

They had abandon chance at low hp.
CoH2 emplacements had that too, but there was some odd behavior with it(for example when it occurred during brace) so it was removed and you can only destroy it now.

That still is a different type of abandonment then, say, PaK43.

But a chance is better than no chance.

I was just giving the closest equivalent examples

These were not equivalent in any way. MG nest is equivalent to the USF MG nest. No one complains about it.

Obviously it makes no sense for tech structure to get abandoned, but just like shwerer is not a gun platform with infantry, but a whole "unit", the deal is with emplacements, its a whole unit, not a crew on a support weapon.

But using this HQ offensively is a very, very big risk. There's a big drawback to using it to lock down forward points, as losing it means no tanks for a long time, and a shitton of fuel lost. The drawback to losing a bofors is akin to losing a light vehicle. And yet the bofors has more means to defend itself from attacks than the HQ.

Brace exist as a preservation mechanic from instant wipes, but you also have positive dmg modifier from explosives, ballistics and flames.

So OKW's doctrinal (!) Flak nest (which is a true equivalent to the bofors) is fine to instant wipe, but Bofors is not and needs to have brace and barrage? Something is very not right there.

It may not be the best mechanic around and sure a lot of people hate it, but, loosely quoting Brad while he was still at Relic, "few loud people who do not like to play against certain playstyle or unit is not a reason for the playstyle to not be a valid choice and option".

It's not a playstyle. It's "I will place bofors, mortar or two, and forward assembly and play some movie on my TV". For me, the emplacements can have the brace. But let them be decrewable (like OKW's flak or Ost's PaK43 or LeIH) and remove the bofors barrage. That's all.

But using this HQ offensively is a very, very big risk. There's a big drawback to using it to lock down forward points, as losing it means no tanks for a long time, and a shitton of fuel lost. The drawback to losing a bofors is akin to losing a light vehicle. And yet the bofors has more means to defend itself from attacks than the HQ.

Risk doesn't really change the function.
Its area denial tool working in the same way as bofors, except for no additional cost, without negative modifiers, without popcap cost and with much greater health poll.

So OKW's doctrinal (!) Flak nest (which is a true equivalent to the bofors) is fine to instant wipe, but Bofors is not and needs to have brace and barrage? Something is very not right there.

Terrible example.
There isn't a single sane player in the game saying okw flak is fine.

It's not a playstyle. It's "I will place bofors, mortar or two, and forward assembly and play some movie on my TV". For me, the emplacements can have the brace. But let them be decrewable (like OKW's flak or Ost's PaK43 or LeIH) and remove the bofors barrage. That's all.

That is exactly a playstyle/BO choice.
It got its hardcounters just like any other BO.
During ESL you could see how easily this can be countered.
Team games are not balanced at all.

The key when dealing with a bofors or other emplacements is to keep pressure on them. To produce a working sim city - a bofors, a mortar pit and a foward outpost with repairs - a Brit player needs to spend at least 1130 manpower. That's A LOT and it means that a Brit player is at a disadvantage of not having an army that can easily penetrate frontlines to reach your counters. These counters are: walking stukas, mortar halftracks, ISGs, leFH 18 and later on Sturmtigers.

Brace doesn't last forever and forward assembly sappers die very easily to indirect fire. After that they're unavailable for a long time. The deal is to have more than one counter up at a time. Multiple mortar halftracks, ISGs or two walking stukas. You force an emplacement to brace and pound it hard after it's on cooldown. ISGs will obliterate any forward assembly sappers or other infantry repairing an emplacement. Walking stuka deals a TREMENDOUS amount of damage against unbraced emplacements. Mortar halftracks incendiary barrage forces an emplacement to either brace or soak up a huge amount of damage - preventing anyone from repairing it during that time. I forgot about the leFH. If it appears when a sim city is still up, it pretty much means that the Brit player is fucked. An Ost player should still have a bigger army at that time so that the Brit can't reach the leFH. The howitzer can carve up a sim city pretty good on its down, not to mention mixing it with other counters.

All the tools I mentioned apart from ISGs are unreachable/uncounterable by counter-barrage or the Bofors barrage.

I feel that people who complain about Bofors the most are the ones that rush emplacement clusters with volk shreck hordes or such. You can't just get a bunch of counters, fire them all at once and expect a sim city to go down. Learn the cycle of braced/unbraced. Keep pressure on a sim city to force it to brace and after it's on cooldown BLAST it. Make extensive use of mortar halftracks and walking stukas. Every sim city will go down if you do it right.

They had abandon chance at low hp.
CoH2 emplacements had that too, but there was some odd behavior with it(for example when it occurred during brace) so it was removed and you can only destroy it now.

That still is a different type of abandonment then, say, PaK43.



I was just giving the closest equivalent examples

Obviously it makes no sense for tech structure to get abandoned, but just like shwerer is not a gun platform with infantry, but a whole "unit", the deal is with emplacements, its a whole unit, not a crew on a support weapon.

Brace exist as a preservation mechanic from instant wipes, but you also have positive dmg modifier from explosives, ballistics and flames.

It may not be the best mechanic around and sure a lot of people hate it, but, loosely quoting Brad while he was still at Relic, "few loud people who do not like to play against certain playstyle or unit is not a reason for the playstyle to not be a valid choice and option".

If there was some odd behavior with the abandonment then I dont see why they couldnt just fix that instead of making them undecrewable because I would also think it would be dumb if they could be wiped during brace or by snipers but I still dont see why emplacements cant have a system where the emplacements is invulnerable to decrew at high health but as health lowers its chance to be decrewed increases.

The fact that the emplacements are units shouldnt make them undecrewable, if units wernt supposed to be abandoned and recaptured then why do vehicles get abandoned?

I know emplacements have damage modifiers but I dont have access to the stats so I dont know what they are in detail but I know they are supposed to be vulnerable to fire and explosives which would be really good if the Feuersturm doctrine wasnt complete trash(not that there arnt other options for explosives but for fire there really isnt any fire in the OKW outside the feuersturm doctrine other than the vet 4 stuka barrage).

Risk doesn't really change the function.
Its area denial tool working in the same way as bofors, except for no additional cost, without negative modifiers, without popcap cost and with much greater health poll.

It is NOT an are denial tool. It's first and foremost, a tech building that can defend itself. You can use it offensively, but it is much more expensive, comes way later, has no barrage, has no brace, and losing it can lose the game more often than not. Only thing it has, is more HP, than a Bofors. The functions are fundamentally different for those two structures.

Terrible example.
There isn't a single sane player in the game saying okw flak is fine.

I know no one says it is fine, but THIS is THE equivalent to the Bofors. Bofors should be compared to this and nothing else.

That is exactly a playstyle/BO choice.
It got its hardcounters just like any other BO.

And the emplacement can hardcounter many of its "counters" with barrage and comes much faster than anything that can reliably take it down. Sim city is a BO/playstyle. Bofors is just cancer.

It is NOT an are denial tool. It's first and foremost, a tech building that can defend itself. You can use it offensively, but it is much more expensive, comes way later, has no barrage, has no brace, and losing it can lose the game more often than not. Only thing it has, is more HP, than a Bofors. The functions are fundamentally different for those two structures.




I know no one says it is fine, but THIS is THE equivalent to the Bofors. Bofors should be compared to this and nothing else.



And the emplacement can hardcounter many of its "counters" with barrage and comes much faster than anything that can reliably take it down. Sim city is a BO/playstyle. Bofors is just cancer.

+1 well said

If there was some odd behavior with the abandonment then I dont see why they couldnt just fix that instead of making them undecrewable because I would also think it would be dumb if they could be wiped during brace or by snipers but I still dont see why emplacements cant have a system where the emplacements is invulnerable to decrew at high health but as health lowers its chance to be decrewed increases.


The fact that the emplacements are units shouldnt make them undecrewable, if units wernt supposed to be abandoned and recaptured then why do vehicles get abandoned?

I know emplacements have damage modifiers but I dont have access to the stats so I dont know what they are in detail but I know they are supposed to be vulnerable to fire and explosives which would be really good if the Feuersturm doctrine wasnt complete trash(not that there arnt other options for explosives but for fire there really isnt any fire in the OKW outside the feuersturm doctrine other than the vet 4 stuka barrage).

In this case, you're disagreeing with the developers. It was decrewable and now it is not.
December 3rd 2015 Release Notes:
EMPLACEMENTS
* Can no longer be abandoned
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/241299/april-27th-balance-preview-mod-release-notes#latest

Which is why the vehicles now have to be repaired to 100% before they can move.

You are disregarding mortar half tracks (flame ability), 251 flamer, engineers, incendiary grenade, Stuka.

Whoever is comparing them to MG bunkers... MG bunkers do not cost any pop cap. They also have mg42/mg34. The bunker is just an alternative. In the case of UKF, do they have mobile mortars? No. So they need something to make up for it. Flak HQ also does not have pop cap. Whoever is saying is risky to use offensively, most just use it cover a rear cutoff point. This defeats the purpose of the game of flanking and taking over cutoff points when an enemy is fortified at a certain position because now both are heavily defended.

And for UKF 17 pounder, please give me pak43 instead. I would die for a pak43 instead of 17 pounder. Pak43 = lower pop cap (12vs20), perma shoot through sight blockers, decrew but not destroyed, lower cost (mp and no fuel cost), relatively small target versus massive hitbox. A JT can kill a 17 pounder but can't kill a pak43. UKF pays more for less.

What is the hard counter for this?

Lobbying relic to remove it from the game.