Soviet industry - where is my munition?!

First of all I should say - I don't like how Relic remaked doctrines like Elite, Soviet Industry, Riflemans and all others, personal opinion. Those doctrines were uniqe, they gave you special and interesting playstyles and gameplay (like Encircliment doctrine gives now). But, spirit of Communism (or retardism) equilied those uniqe doctrines and they became same boring and common, as all others... Pretty sad to see, how good and creative ideas were destroyed under push of "competitive" players, hello from Cold Tech.

But that's not main point of topic. That one is about Soviet industry doctrine and 1 serious problem in that. Look at this:

1. Repair stations cost - 75 ammo.
2. 20-30 fuel drop cost - 100 ammo. (with risks of loosing that to AA).
3. No additional ammo drop for you, like some Ostheer ammo-dependend doctrines have (CAS, Osttrupen).

As we can see, for to use all posibilites, which gives you that doctrine you have to spend enourmous count of ammo. Mostly, people have to choose between building repair posts and getting small (but sometimes important) boosts of fuel, cos you never will have enough ammo for to get both of them, if we will also keep in mind spendings on mines, grenades and such stuff.

I think, it would be more fair and reasonable to change ammo cost on fuel drop to MP cost, like Luftwaffe supplie drop has. That's actually very strange, that for 200 MP without any risks of AA Ostheer can get 50/100 fuel/ammo and USSR for 100 ammo getting only 20-30 fuel and with risks of AA shot.

So, I suggest to let Lend-lease and Soviet industry fuel drop cost 200 MP, like luftwaffe one. It drops at base, ok, but we know again, that Ostheer luftwaffe drop can't be broken with allie's AA, but soviet's can. So, it is you "assymetry" and "balance". + Before "nerf" soviet industry changed MP income to Fuel, so - everything is correct here.

Ideas?

Soviet Windustry had the problem of not having enough manpower for anything and too much ammo to go around because there were no ammo dumps in the doctrine. Relic fixed both these problems with one change. Reverting it would be a bad idea.

Soviet Industry has never been used this much before (except for the short time it was "OP"). Everybody likes it the way it is now. Don't start complaining again plz

Well, the only thing which is not fine is the fact that supply drop can be shot down even my flaks in base or schwerer while OST supply drop is immortal.

Well, the only thing which is not fine is the fact that supply drop can be shot down even my flaks in base or schwerer while OST supply drop is immortal.

If you made the planes immortal, then the commander would be "OP" again. And yes OST supply drop is immortal, but it cost you manpower. And you can play a game without having munition, but without having manpower........ No.

If you made the planes immortal, then the commander would be "OP" again. And yes OST supply drop is immortal, but it cost you manpower. And you can play a game without having munition, but without having manpower........ No.

But compare - 200 MP and 100 ammo. And for first you getting 2 times more fuel. I see here logic "all best to axis, nothing good for allies". 200 MP is not so many for 50 fuel or 100 ammo drop. But 100 ammo only for 20 or 30 fuel - seems unreasonable and too much, if we will also add huge chanses of loss your 100 ammo into nothing. That's ridiculous, that you have a button, which works like lottery ticket - press and pray, that enemy AA won't get your fuel down. That makes Ostheer supplies drop look OP, compared with soviet drop.

And don't forget - before remastering, Industry changed MP to Fuel, not ammo.

Btw, why you think that Soviet industry was OP and it will become OP? It was fine and will be fine. Right now it's pretty mediocre and boring. Just like Elite, Riflemans and all others.

If you made the planes immortal, then the commander would be "OP" again. And yes OST supply drop is immortal, but it cost you manpower. And you can play a game without having munition, but without having manpower........ No.

Completly opposite. I would choose MP trade for ammo trade any day.

You may ask why, well, it's simple.

If I played well, and I don't bleed too much I always have some extra man power.
Sure, if I played badly I won't be able to use it but I won't have much ammo as well.

Point is, you can save extra man power thanks to good micro, good decision etc while you can't save extra ammo.

So in the end you can get extra XXX MP which you can spare but no matter what, you won't get extra ammo.

I'd actually prefer something like Conscript Repair Kit instead of repair posts. You'll already have some Conscripts around, and they won't be sitting ducks as your KV-2 or whatever is being picked off by mortars. That or it just costs manpower to produce than munitions.

It actually seems weird that it requires manpower to build, I can understand Forward Assembly and Bunkers, but those are upgrades.

Yes you both pointed out some good points.
It's weird that axis get a lot more fuel then the allies.
True you should be making decisions that save you manpower and in this case you can spend that on extra fuel.

Maybe they should make the amout of fuel you get the same and make axis pay more (?) manpower for their fuel and munition. Bcs it is actually a bit weird that the "manpower -> fuel" system of soviet industry (before it works the way it now works) was according to a lot of people OP and now the axis abillity to trade manpower for fuel isn't OP? I have to admit it's strange.

Idk maybe relic should make these commanders a bit more the same for the sake of "balance". But if you get two almost the same commanders for OST and SU, it will get a lot more boring. If we do this with all the commanders for the sake of "balance", i should say leave it. But that's my opinion

It actually seems weird that it requires manpower to build, I can understand Forward Assembly and Bunkers, but those are upgrades.

You mean the repair stations? Bcs those cost 75 munition and not manpower
Tell me if i am wrong and you ment something else

Yes you both pointed out some good points.
It's weird that axis get a lot more fuel then the allies.
True you should be making decisions that save you manpower and in this case you can spend that on extra fuel.

Maybe they should make the amout of fuel you get the same and make axis pay more (?) manpower for their fuel and munition. Bcs it is actually a bit weird that the "manpower -> fuel" system of soviet industry (before it works the way it now works) was according to a lot of people OP and now the axis abillity to trade manpower for fuel isn't OP? I have to admit it's strange.

Idk maybe relic should make these commanders a bit more the same for the sake of "balance". But if you get two almost the same commanders for OST and SU, it will get a lot more boring. If we do this with all the commanders for the sake of "balance", i should say leave it. But that's my opinion

Point is, previous SU system was out of control.
You gained 3CPs and it insta turned your MP and F income. Becasue of this, you could not afford any MP loses, doctrine forced you to use it.

OST drops are completly in your control. You decide if you need extra F or you want to keep MP in bank.

Well, it was OP in the first 10mins, when you could spam T70 but after 10min it was slowlt killing your map presence.

If it worked like old Mech turck conversion, so you can turn it off/on, then it would be OP.

As for now, Im fine with Ostwind or 251/17 taking down planes but investin 100ammo just to see how the plane is falling down to flaks in base or schwerer is just bad design when o the other side OST planes cannot be shot down.

Point is, previous SU system was out of control.
You gained 3CPs and it insta turned your MP and F income. Becasue of this, you could not afford any MP loses, doctrine forced you to use it.

OST drops are completly in your control. You decide if you need extra F or you want to keep MP in bank.

Well, it was OP in the first 10mins, when you could spam T70 but after 10min it was slowlt killing your map presence.

If it worked like old Mech turck conversion, so you can turn it off/on, then it would be OP.

As for now, Im fine with Ostwind or 251/17 taking down planes but investin 100ammo just to see how the plane is falling down to flaks in base or schwerer is just bad design when o the other side OST planes cannot be shot down.

Well you can see it like this 2: Ostheer player needs to make an ostwind to get your planes down.
I only pick soviet industry if i am against an ostheer. I never pick it against okw, bcs they have free anti air. You force an ostheer player to make anti air, which you can use in your advantage to make something anti tank and kill the anti air.

Every disadvantage has his advantage, as Johan Cruijff would say

Well you can see it like this 2: Ostheer player needs to make an ostwind to get your planes down.

Well... not only ostwind can deal with planes. 222 cars can, MGs on tanks can. And even StuG G can get MG, jesus...

Well you can see it like this 2: Ostheer player needs to make an ostwind to get your planes down.
I only pick soviet industry if i am against an ostheer. I never pick it against okw, bcs they have free anti air. You force an ostheer player to make anti air, which you can use in your advantage to make something anti tank and kill the anti air.

Every disadvantage has his advantage, as Johan Cruijff would say

I would hardly get Oswtind to shoot down planes.
I mean, enemy already cripples himself with ammo - less mines, less demos and he can't get extra ammo thanks to good micro.

I would be more worried about drop for MP becasue he can still aford mines, demos and if we played well, he has that MP to spare

And again, I see no reason at all why OST planes cannot be shot down.

I would hardly get Oswtind to shoot down planes.
I mean, enemy already cripples himself with ammo - less mines, less demos and he can't get extra ammo thanks to good micro.

I would be more worried about drop for MP becasue he can still aford mines, demos and if we played well, he has that MP to spare

And again, I see no reason at all why OST planes cannot be shot down.

There is no reason. It's just to mix it all up a bit
OK you convinced me. It's weird. But I never had a problem with it, so this is the end of the conversation for me

You mean the repair stations? Bcs those cost 75 munition and not manpower
Tell me if i am wrong and you ment something else

I meant they should cost manpower instead of munitions.

In my opinion. They should have made Soviet industry like this

-Remove build speed boost

-Make Soviet Industry a Toggle

So you can choose when you want more Manpower or more Fuel. like what the OKW used to have.

Another thing would have increased fuel income, but all infantry costed munitions to build and reinforce.

Soviet industry was shit since it killed your manpower. Also back in the day, guards were more meta so you needed the callin inf. New SI is better because you can actually build units as well as tanks and guards are less important(though they might come back into the meta)

Elite troops was dumb because you could vet units ahead of their natural times. Same problem with rifleman company.

The munition float is a bigger problem with USSR since you can't upgrade your cons with guns. Build more mines in the meantime.

Industry need fix, if thay cannot fix down planes from OKW AA, lets fix it from another side.
But i still can not understand why Ostheer planes come from ostheer side, but soviet from axis

just wait until the new patch

Buffed penals and T-34/76's make it much more useful. Bundle in muni for fuel, repair station spam and KV-2 and suddenly it looks like one of the best docs in the game.

no changes needed