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russian armor

M10 call-in is too strong compared to Puma call-in

26 Apr 2016, 21:39 PM
#1
avatar of Slyzor

Posts: 51

M10 costs about the same as Puma but it is infinitely better. Puma is only half-decent only when it called in the desperate situation and can only deal vs some light vehicles. On the other hand M10 is overall great and can 1v1 panzer 4. Not to mention it also can crush and like almost any usf vehicle has crew and 75% moving accuracy.
26 Apr 2016, 21:42 PM
#2
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1

M10 costs 90 fuel
26 Apr 2016, 21:43 PM
#3
avatar of l4hti

Posts: 476

26 Apr 2016, 22:02 PM
#4
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

Panic Puma is always a bad idea.

It exists purely to lose games for people.
26 Apr 2016, 22:04 PM
#5
avatar of Tobis
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Panic Puma is always a bad idea.

It exists purely to lose games for people.

Panic Puma is always a good idea, there is a reason mobile defense is the most used Ostheer commander in ESL.
26 Apr 2016, 22:05 PM
#6
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

The Puma is probably the better tank hunter pound for pound. It can spot for itself and use its 50 range advantage against medium tanks that only have 40 range. The vet 1 ability of the puma (target weakpoint for Ost, Aimed shot for OKW) allows it to quite consistently solo enemy medium tanks.

M10 on the other hand can't spot for itself as far as I am aware. It's also significantly more expensive than the puma while not providing any particular better anti-tank firepower than the Puma. It also lacks any form of machine guns to damage infantry from range like the Puma can. The M10 can however crush quite well, which the Puma can't.

Overall I would say both units are fine.
26 Apr 2016, 22:15 PM
#7
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2016, 22:04 PMTobis

Panic Puma is always a good idea, there is a reason mobile defense is the most used Ostheer commander in ESL.


Just because people use it doesn't mean it's a good idea. They would almost always be better off teching normally and getting better units out than they are using the Puma.

The only time it works as a comeback unit is when the opponent forgets it exists and gets caught off guard.

Example:
https://youtu.be/5vkoaybI6so?t=678

26 Apr 2016, 23:01 PM
#8
avatar of Tobis
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Just because people use it doesn't mean it's a good idea. They would almost always be better off teching normally and getting better units out than they are using the Puma.

The only time it works as a comeback unit is when the opponent forgets it exists and gets caught off guard.

Example:
https://youtu.be/5vkoaybI6so?t=678


These are the best players in the game playing in a tournament for a cash prize, you really think 1/3 players would choose it if it was bad?
26 Apr 2016, 23:06 PM
#9
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2016, 23:01 PMTobis

These are the best players in the game playing in a tournament for a cash prize, you really think 1/3 players would choose it if it was bad?


They wouldn't choose it if they thought it was bad, but they're wrong about it being good.

It's a crutch for mistakes.
26 Apr 2016, 23:40 PM
#10
avatar of Kallipolan

Posts: 196

I agree, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, while one M10 is fine, 2 is oppressive and pretty much negates any Axis armour except a KT while being extremely cost-effective. Given that massed Rifleman with BARs already provide very good anti-infantry, the power of M10s allows USF to create a force which is highly effective against all targets for very little cost. I think the only solution is to nerf the M10, maybe the rate of fire in particular so they aren't as deadly to medium tanks. Nerfing the cost wouldn't really solve the problem, and locking the M10 behind the Major would kill Armour Commander.

The other problem with M10s is crush. Crush is an inherently bullshit mechanic and should be severely nerfed. The occasional crush makes for a cool moment but when M10s and Cromwells are crushing whole squads it needs to go.
26 Apr 2016, 23:48 PM
#11
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Well, axis armour has superior AT and allied vehcles have superior AI.. one shotting main guns offer no countet play where laying some mines will lead to a certain end to that player trying to smoosh your troops (lose a few vehcles balls deep in the enemy because you tried to squish them and you tend to be alittle more conservative with the crush...
27 Apr 2016, 00:15 AM
#12
avatar of Pedro_Jedi

Posts: 543

The other problem with M10s is crush. Crush is an inherently bullshit mechanic and should be severely nerfed. The occasional crush makes for a cool moment but when M10s and Cromwells are crushing whole squads it needs to go.


I remember T70 crush. Nightmares!
27 Apr 2016, 01:01 AM
#13
avatar of Tobis
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Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4



They wouldn't choose it if they thought it was bad, but they're wrong about it being good.

It's a crutch for mistakes.

You don't build a crutch out of broken wood. :snfBarton:
27 Apr 2016, 02:46 AM
#14
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



They wouldn't choose it if they thought it was bad, but they're wrong about it being good.

It's a crutch for mistakes.


https://www.coh2.org/news/52176/esl-go4coh2-statistics-part-iii-commanders

Mobile defense is the most popular doctrine of the entire game during ESL. It was picked 92 times with a 47% winrate, compared to the 2nd place , Scavenger doctrine at 62 times with a 44% winrate.

if mobile is not "good", it's the best out of selection of "bad" doctrines.
27 Apr 2016, 02:53 AM
#15
avatar of easierwithaturret

Posts: 247

What else does the doctrine have aside from m10?
27 Apr 2016, 03:22 AM
#16
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384



https://www.coh2.org/news/52176/esl-go4coh2-statistics-part-iii-commanders

Mobile defense is the most popular doctrine of the entire game during ESL. It was picked 92 times with a 47% winrate, compared to the 2nd place , Scavenger doctrine at 62 times with a 44% winrate.

if mobile is not "good", it's the best out of selection of "bad" doctrines.


And why is it picked a lot?

Because Puma provides a braindead counter to light vehicles. If you're dying to halftracks and stuarts or t70's you can call it in and it will give you a second wind in a game you would have otherwise lost.

You know what you can have at the same time as the Puma (6 cp ~12 minutes) if you have even map control and tech up? A stug.

The kind of situation where it works is like the game I linked, where Ostheer got his ass kicked and it's his only option to stay in the game, and even then it only works against an opponent who makes serious mistakes and isn't prepared for it.






27 Apr 2016, 03:24 AM
#17
avatar of Tobis
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And why is it picked a lot?

Because Puma provides a braindead counter to light vehicles. If you're dying to halftracks and stuarts or t70's you can call it in and it will give you a second wind in a game you would have otherwise lost.

You know what you can have at the same time as the Puma (6 cp ~12 minutes) if you have even map control and tech up? A stug.

The kind of situation where it works is like the game I linked, where Ostheer got his ass kicked and it's his only option to stay in the game, and even then it only works against an opponent who makes serious mistakes and isn't prepared for it.


And that somehow makes it... bad?
27 Apr 2016, 03:38 AM
#18
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2016, 03:24 AMTobis


And that somehow makes it... bad?


It's bad compared to using core army units and doctrines throughout the game, yes.

Having mobile defense in your deck and ignoring anything past Battlephase 1 just in case you need a panic puma is dumb. What you see people do is take Tiger doctrines with it so if they do well in the mid game they'll just get a Tiger instead of picking mobile defense.

Core army is stronger than both these styles.



27 Apr 2016, 03:38 AM
#19
avatar of Kamzil118

Posts: 455

What else does the doctrine have aside from m10?
Bulldozer Sherman and RNG bombs.

The Bulldozer Sherman is the USF s version of a Brumbar with a turret and has more armor than the regular Sherman tanks. (Someone correct me about its stats if I am wrong)

240mm Artillery: This is the USF's heavy artillery which is very powerful and not to be underestimated. Plus, the shells come in at random intervals.
27 Apr 2016, 03:42 AM
#20
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4



It's bad compared to using core army units and doctrines throughout the game, yes.

Having mobile defense in your deck and ignoring anything past Battlephase 1 just in case you need a panic puma is dumb. What you see people do is take Tiger doctrines with it so if they do well in the mid game they'll just get a Tiger instead of picking mobile defense.

Still don't see how that makes it bad. It's only 80 fuel, it's not like it locks you out of teching up.
Picking a commander locks you out of choosing a different one, they all do that. It's a comeback commander, it saves you from losing. You know, the goal of the game. Not like a tiger commander is going to help you if you lose at 12 mins.
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