Great, they switch the MG spamfest to Ostheer

Good to know how you Dev guys are thinking. But please, can you guys stop making "hard counters" to the game?

Oh, he is getting MG42, I need M3, A move and he die
Oh, he has M3, let me get an AC, A move and kill it in seconds.
Oh, he has T2 vehicles, let me get T70 and rape them before Pz4 comes out.
Oh, he has T70, let me GTFO of all my stuff and praying my Pz4 comes faster.

Damn it, those are not skills. Why do you guys make it that casual friendly?
70% of 1v1 automatch are those 4 sentences above. THAT IS STARTING TO BE BORING

COH1 lasts for 6-7 years, those gameplay are still exciting. Every game are so different, there are so many different strat and so many different approach to counter them.
COH2 was just born like 2-3 weeks, and I start getting tired of those IDENTICAL matchup

I feel like not playing Company of Heroes but Company of One Man Army. In COH, We needed a good combined arms to deal with stuff, not ultra hard counters A-move and kill their pray in seconds

AMEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!




this is what I feel is messing things up right now. You need certain things to kill certain things. And other than that, they have not much use. This massively changes the dynamic of the game. Instead of giving you that combined forces feeling, it feels like, ok unit x its your turn, unit b now your up, unit c go the corner.......

Good to know how you Dev guys are thinking. But please, can you guys stop making "hard counters" to the game?

Oh, he is getting MG42, I need M3, A move and he die
Oh, he has M3, let me get an AC, A move and kill it in seconds.
Oh, he has T2 vehicles, let me get T70 and rape them before Pz4 comes out.
Oh, he has T70, let me GTFO of all my stuff and praying my Pz4 comes faster.

Damn it, those are not skills. Why do you guys make it that casual friendly?
70% of 1v1 automatch are those 4 sentences above. THAT IS STARTING TO BE BORING

COH1 lasts for 6-7 years, those gameplay are still exciting. Every game are so different, there are so many different strat and so many different approach to counter them.
COH2 was just born like 2-3 weeks, and I start getting tired of those IDENTICAL matchup

I feel like not playing Company of Heroes but Company of One Man Army. In COH, We needed a good combined arms to deal with stuff, not ultra hard counters A-move and kill their pray in seconds

hard to kill mg42 with m3 when he has support around it. like grens

hard to kill m3 with AC when he has cons or guards protecting it

hard to kill t2 vehicles with t-70 when he mircos them away drawing you into faust or shrecks and paks.

t70 out but no fuel for p4 yet? pak, faust, shrecks...can hold till p4 or stug arrives.

how about trying that "combined arms" you keep saying doesnt exist in coh2?

hard to kill mg42 with m3 when he has support around it. like grens

hard to kill m3 with AC when he has cons or guards protecting it

hard to kill t2 vehicles with t-70 when he mircos them away drawing you into faust or shrecks and paks.

t70 out but no fuel for p4 yet? pak, faust, shrecks...can hold till p4 or stug arrives.

how about trying that "combined arms" you keep saying doesnt exist in coh2?

Did't think those are hard

and learn to read, I didn't say it doesn't exist, but not rewarded enough

Did't think those are hard

and learn to read, I didn't say it doesn't exist, but not rewarded enough

i'm starting to think you should just stop playing coh2 and play vcoh. since that's the game you want to play.

my apologizes about the exact use of dialogue. it is rewarded in the sense these "hard counters" are no longer one unit gibs and two equally skilled players will find it equally difficult to kill the other's units in each of these situations.

i honestly cant understand why this game upsets you so much and vcoh doesnt. greyhound didnt hard counter mg42s? snipers didnt hard counter weapon teams in general? at gun didnt hard counter pumas?

greyhound didnt hard counter mg42s? snipers didnt hard counter weapon teams in general? at gun didnt hard counter pumas?

This. I don't see much of a argument that these "hard counters" are ruining COH2 because they existed in COH1 also. I don't like the current state of M3 and T70 but it has nothing to do with being a "hard" counter.

I agree with all of Porygon's points. This game is simplified, cartoonish, and imbalanced.

I said as much in a post on the beta forums that got closed. Now it just seems ok because most here are 1v1ers and in 1v1 a bit more tactics are required, there is something like the "dance," etc. In 2v2 everything is just worse 5x, and forget about 3v3 and 4v4.

The complexity of COH meant that even 4v4s were roughly balanced, lots of people doing totally different stuff, but here if you don't do A, B will kill you. If you do too much of A (clown cars), then C (PZiV) will kill you.

This didn't exist in COH quite the same. He's got 2 mgs, ok I'll get WSC or go fast M8. Or I get nades. Lots of choices. Not so in COH2. Molotovs are OK in 1v1, but on all these team maps with too many chokepoints, it's very hard to pull off a flank where they are effective, thus clown cars...But the PZiV and teching is so cheap, and it's so easy to stay in T1 that you can afford to rush it. The constant engine damage critical means even a fast T70 isn't THAT big a problem, unlike an M8 which would probably just take damage and run away from a faust or be able to micro out of the way. It's much more effective in this game to rush the PzIV and backtech to shreks if needed later. Avoiding T2 and Panzergrens also leaves you much less vulnerable to snipers (though it does give you a counter too) as your won't have brutal manpower losses from reinforcing Pgrens.

Frankly the balance is so bad now thanks to the buffed Ostheer MGs and mortars team games are even more lopsided than they were before. Lose the casual base, lose the game. I think Relic really needs to pay attention here.

I think 1) get rid of the 100% chance engine damage critical, 2) EITHER reduce Axis mortar speed or set the crews back to 3, 3) buff the AT guns because their accuracy is total shite on both sides, 4) make microing out of AT nade/faust range possible.

If those 4 things are done, you'd be surprised at how much more interesting the game suddenly gets.

The point is being missed, it's not about hard counters only, it's about soft counter not actually being effective which means they are no real counter at all . And hard counters being only useful as hard counters. M8 was hard counter to mg, useful vs everything else. Upgraded puma was a hard counter to m8, but retained usefulness even after m8 was gone. Mgs armor piercing rounds were a soft counter to m8s and half traks. M8 mines were a soft counter to early stugs. Upgraded circle flanking m8s were a counter to stugs. Pio mines(affordable) were soft counters to marauding m8's/jeeps. Multiple upgraded Pumas were soft counters to an m10. I can go on and on about soft counters in Coh. Something which I can not do about Coh2

4) make microing out of AT nade/faust range possible.

i'm not sure you even play the same game. that range is almost point blank.

your points would make at guns the only good inf unit against anything better armored than a halftrack.

sorry but i cant take your post seriously. you're complaining about stuff you shouldn't lose to and stuff that german players have had to deal with since day one (6 man powerful mortar teams, 6 man mgs, not even being able to use pak because of 3 man squads).

The point is being missed, it's not about hard counters only, it's about soft counter not actually being effective which means they are no real counter at all . And hard counters being only useful as hard counters. M8 was hard counter to mg, useful vs everything else. Upgraded puma was a hard counter to m8, but retained usefulness even after m8 was gone. Mgs armor piercing rounds were a soft counter to m8s and half traks. M8 mines were a soft counter to early stugs. pio mines(affordable) were soft counters to marauding m8's jeeps. Multiple upgraded Pumas were soft counters to an m8. I can go on and on about soft counters in Coh. Something which I can not do about Coh2

m3 does not exist purely to attack mgs. ac does not exist purely to kill m3. mg42s can do damage to m3 and by the time you see t70 or anything better armored, you should have t2 and shrecks and/or pak to help you if you're not at t3.

soft counters still there and work. if not as numerous as vcoh. but the way tech and costs work, they dont have to be (no pop cap limit based on territory, meaning not every single unit has to have 2-4 soft counters))

Oh, he is getting MG42, I need M3, A move and he die
Oh, he has M3, let me get an AC, A move and kill it in seconds.
Oh, he has T2 vehicles, let me get T70 and rape them before Pz4 comes out.
Oh, he has T70, let me GTFO of all my stuff and praying my Pz4 comes faster.

Damn it, those are not skills. Why do you guys make it that casual friendly?
70% of 1v1 automatch are those 4 sentences above. THAT IS STARTING TO BE BORING

What if you take the first sentence out of the equation?
Yeah that's right, no mg42. What happenes then?

Maybe this?
http://www.coh2.org/replays/5301/a-different-way-to-play-ostheer

i'm not sure you even play the same game. that range is almost point blank.

your points would make at guns the only good inf unit against anything better armored than a halftrack.

sorry but i cant take your post seriously. you're complaining about stuff you shouldn't lose to and stuff that german players have had to deal with since day one (6 man powerful mortar teams, 6 man mgs, not even being able to use pak because of 3 man squads).


m3 does not exist purely to attack mgs. ac does not exist purely to kill m3. mg42s can do damage to m3 and by the time you see t70 or anything better armored, you should have t2 and shrecks and/or pak to help you if you're not at t3.

soft counters still there and work. if not as numerous as vcoh. but the way tech and costs work, they dont have to be (no pop cap limit based on territory, meaning not every single unit has to have 2-4 soft counters))

LOL, what Ostheer SdKwf 222 AC purpose aside of killing clown cars? M5 doesn't exist at all. 222 can't kill anything that walk with legs, and it can't kill even T70 unless vet 3
I tried to spam SdKwf 222 AC like 4-5, swarm up a T70 like M10 swarming a single panther, but lose them all to a single T70

That's the retardness of "Hard Counters", and soft counters are not effective at all. Example, Hotchkiss. They soft counters EVERYTHING. While numbers are enough, they even rape Pershing.

I hope them giving us another upgrade version making them become PE ver. of SdKwf 222 AC. Then the game will be more fun, Ostheer can deal with Infantry with some real man weapons, not lol flame HT ROFL A MOVE AND YOU DIE

LOL, what Ostheer SdKwf 222 AC purpose aside of killing clown cars?

If you get it vetted up (and it vets extremely fast with the 20mm shooting vehicles) you use it to harrass caches, kill SU76, kill Katyusha, kill halftracks, and at vet 3 you can use it to flank and hurt T70 + T34 while they are preoccupied shooting at something else. They definitely could use a buff against infantry, but to say they are useless after M3s is just false.

After I kill the M3 I almost always get the 222 to vet 3 and I use it to scout. It's a scout car, after all.

I think support crews in general get off too easily, yet I think buffing small arms fire and adjust large buildings is the answer, rather than weapon-crew sizes.

Please increase small arms fire massively and increase the cover bonuses troops receive to counter said increase. This would make flanking weapons teams actually pay off and give you a reason to use cover or even build it in the case of conscripts. I am sick of seeing guys in the middle of a road seeming to take no more damage than the guys in light cover they are shooting at. As for building cover, well we all know that is a joke and needs addressing ASAP.

A minimum range on Machineguns and Mortars might help the flanking issues?

Would make realistic sense on ATGs too, but due to the nature of the game, is not practical.

sigh..

You make great points rtschutter. However, we didn't make the changes to address the Maxim vs. MG42 scenario. It was in response to German weapon team vulnerabilities. Namely, to snipers, tank shells, grenades, etc. More so, the cost of losing a MG42 is much higher for Germans than losing a Maxim for Soviets which compounded the issue.

We did consider the consequence of this change; flanking is now less punishing to the receiving playing. Note I said less punishing, typically you can still force a retreat and in fewer circumstances you can actually decrew the weapon team. If you do manage to do this as Soviets, you get the best of both worlds when you recrew that weapon.

I don't think the extra man has had a major impact on the balance of the MG42, all the same counters still apply. It does reduce the risk of using the MG42, so if anything I might argue that the tactics needed to defeat a well positioned HMG are harder to pull off than the tactics required to positioned said HMG.

That said, we had a very similar reaction to that of the community when we first started testing this change. However, after a few days of testing we begin to formulate new and effective strategies and tactics to take the weapons teams out. Quite frankly, if the German player builds a number of HMG's early on, they are leaving themselves extremely vulnerable to a number of hard counters. The M3 and 120mm mortar proved the most effective counter, Molotovs and the use of buildings were a close second.

If you are finding that the German player is garrisoning his MGs, I would suggest getting 1 Penal Battalion and using their satchel grenade. This typically knocks the entire building out.

I think there's another issue here that seems to be overlooked. Granted this issue has little to do with balance and all to do with aesthetics, but it's still important.

If durability of Ost weapon crews was the issue, then I feel increasing the overall health of the unit rather than placing more "entities" in the crew is a better option.

The visual design of both armies has the Soviets with a greater amount of "entities" on the field at any given time to show just how massive the ground army was.

By lessening the gap between the two, and giving the Germans more of a visual presence in bodies, it cheapens the feeling of overwhelming numbers for the Soviets.

This is also true of the engineer and pio squads. I really, really wish the Ost pios would only be 3 man, vs 4 man engy squads. You could very well adjust HP on pios to make it more balanced.

No one agrees with minimum range to increase viability of flank? Oo

I think there's another issue here that seems to be overlooked. Granted this issue has little to do with balance and all to do with aesthetics, but it's still important.

If durability of Ost weapon crews was the issue, then I feel increasing the overall health of the unit rather than placing more "entities" in the crew is a better option.

The visual design of both armies has the Soviets with a greater amount of "entities" on the field at any given time to show just how massive the ground army was.

By lessening the gap between the two, and giving the Germans more of a visual presence in bodies, it cheapens the feeling of overwhelming numbers for the Soviets.

This is also true of the engineer and pio squads. I really, really wish the Ost pios would only be 3 man, vs 4 man engy squads. You could very well adjust HP on pios to make it more balanced.

you are forgetting snipers which would then be the end all be all for soviets against ost.

and i was going to talk about how i use my scout car to you know "Scout," but i see the rest of you guys already provided that. i also use an unvetted scout car to provide a little extra firepower in fights and harass unprotected mortars. it's freaking 80 mp and 20 fuel, it doesnt have to rape everything on the field.

minimum rage would be interesting nullist. only on mgs of course. the problem is this would require the german player to have 2-4 mgs because of ooorah. the russian can sprint past all your units once he realizes he on the flank and get right up to you, meaning you have to have another mg behind the first...without oorah i could really see this working

I think there's another issue here that seems to be overlooked. Granted this issue has little to do with balance and all to do with aesthetics, but it's still important.

If durability of Ost weapon crews was the issue, then I feel increasing the overall health of the unit rather than placing more "entities" in the crew is a better option.

The visual design of both armies has the Soviets with a greater amount of "entities" on the field at any given time to show just how massive the ground army was.

By lessening the gap between the two, and giving the Germans more of a visual presence in bodies, it cheapens the feeling of overwhelming numbers for the Soviets.

This is also true of the engineer and pio squads. I really, really wish the Ost pios would only be 3 man, vs 4 man engy squads. You could very well adjust HP on pios to make it more balanced.

This creates a problem though. There dev's seem very adamant about leaving all infantry with 80hp, using armor for durability, instead. Many weapons are designed around this 80hp per entity (mortars, for example), so if they began with health discrepancies, it would probably break the initial design philosophy and seriously complicate the relationships between different units: even tank vs infantry.

As for the visual impact, I agree its an aesthetic difference but it is irrelevant in terms of competitive play and balance. If having a competitive environment means I have to fight 3 man soviet crews, my personal opinion is so be it. However, I'd agree that before the game comes down to that, the devs can try to pull off their aesthetic goal, while reaching a nice balance.