30muni mine balance

wehr is primarily a defensive faction until they reach t3 for their tanks. attacking wehr is pretty punishing if the push doesn't go that well for most allied factions. As soviets, mines act as a defense mechanism that help slow down the wehr defensive creep on your cutoff or fuel if a push does not go as well as hoped and you have a mass retreat on your hands.

pios have great sight range and come with a minesweeper upgrade. why wouldn't you sweep enemy territory. it's just common sense.

The choice is really simple. you either eat a mine with manpower or you eat it with a one-off munition investment.

The problem is that it drags the game down enormously when the risk of getting squadwiped by a cheap spammable mine is so high. Ostheer is forced into blobberino tactics as getting 2 early sweepers is suicide as you'll simply get rekt by allied light vehicles rushes and just having 1 sweeper is not enough to cover anything more than the blob.

Ostheer is the only one that suffers from this problem.
OKW can get 2 sweepers and still have combat effective infantry because they can toggle off the sweepers.
USF can get 2 sweepers quite easily because RE troops can still be upgraded with other weapons to give them a role on the battlefield.
Brits engineers can be upgraded to 5 man squads and extra weapons to remain strong troops even when upgraded with sweepers.
Soviets don't need more than 1 sweeper because the risk of squadwipes with 6 man squads is very low.
Ostheer is screwed. Their squads are the easiest off all factions to wipe with random mines, their pioneers have 0 combat effectiveness when armed with a minesweeper and they have no way of making them any more effective. They are forced to blob or take a huge risk of losing expensive squads to RNG mines. If they do go for more sweepers early on, they lack the troops to perform offensive maneuvers and will struggle enormously against allied light vehicle rushes.

Blame Soviets design, lack of upgrades, not mines.

And by the way, I thought mines spam is meant to stop enemy's advance for lng enough to bring VPs down If not, what's the purpose for mines?

And what's next? Nerf teller mine cause it kills my full health T70?

Yeah maybe nerf teller mines a bit. I wouldn't mind that if it meant that mines were changed to stop wiping squads.

You're right about the purpose of mines, but their function (guarding flanks) doesn't require them to be THAT lethal.


The game puts an emphasis on keeping squads alive to gain vet. 30 munitions is far too cheap to be wiping squads. This goes for OKW,UKF,USA,SOV mines. I'm not sure about Ostheer mines, they wipe less often and have signposts. But I wouldn't care if they were nerfed too. Just want to play without insta-jib mines!



I really like OPs idea for making mines unable to kill units but they do reduce their health severely.

I think there is a bit of overstating how often full heath squads get wiped out in the open here, it really isn't very common.

If you are going to be hopping in and out of buildings or going around tight corners you better sweep that shit. That's just good mine placement.

Yeah maybe nerf teller mines a bit. I wouldn't mind that if it meant that mines were changed to stop wiping squads.

You're right about the purpose of mines, but their function (guarding flanks) doesn't require them to be THAT lethal.


The game puts an emphasis on keeping squads alive to gain vet. 30 munitions is far too cheap to be wiping squads. This goes for OKW,UKF,USA,SOV mines. I'm not sure about Ostheer mines, they wipe less often and have signposts. But I wouldn't care if they were nerfed too. Just want to play without insta-jib mines!



I really like OPs idea for making mines unable to kill units but they do reduce their health severely.

I clearly said that wiping full health squad should not take place, but making mines almost not punishing is even worse.

I think there is a bit of overstating how often full heath squads get wiped out in the open here, it really isn't very common.

If you are going to be hopping in and out of buildings or going around tight corners you better sweep that shit. That's just good mine placement.

For me the problem is that you cant just go capping anywhere without a mine sweeper.It really slows down the pace of the game,whereas the SOV player doesnt have to fear anything.

For me the problem is that you cant just go capping anywhere without a mine sweeper.It really slows down the pace of the game,whereas the SOV player doesnt have to fear anything.

You can, you just need to micro.

Don't just click on the point becasue demo might be therse. Go around the circle, cap at the less obvious part of the circle.

Mine is plated to stop you from capping so if you don't go there with sweeper or if you don't micro, blame yourself.

For me the problem is that you cant just go capping anywhere without a mine sweeper.It really slows down the pace of the game,whereas the SOV player doesnt have to fear anything.

That's more or less the point of laying them. You can go capping anywhere without a sweeper, but if you hit mines while you are at it, that is your fault.

Sov player has to watch out for the exact same mine vs OKW Soviet squads bunch up around tight corners and exiting buildings just the same.

Sov player also has to be on the lookout for 1 shot teller kills on his t70/m5.

To make mines not kill makes mines an overpriced vehicle snare.

Blame Soviets design, lack of upgrades, not mines.

And by the way, I thought mines spam is meant to stop enemy's advance for lng enough to bring VPs down If not, what's the purpose for mines?

And what's next? Nerf teller mine cause it kills my full health T70?

What do you expect to hear from me ? Think before talking ...

Currently design is ok,mines are not.
Sighhh.... Either way,mines should be a safe retreat option or secure a flank when getting attacked.Right now they are just getting spammed everywhere without proper positioning nor thinking.
"Mines win games" ? Oh how we all love to play a game where RNG mines decide games not skill.Thank probability calculation ! Jusm spam enough and RNGesus will praise you.

C'mon ... AT-mines wiping light vehicle T-70 with 320 hp.
Continue would like to laugh more.

Mines, to my mind, are fine, expect for wiping full health squads because of bunching, but that is a squad mechanic problem not the mine.

Mines are designed to slow you down. If you don't have time to sweep you run the risk of hitting them. I have zero, and I mean zero, concern about 1 shot wipes from units infiltrating from buildings. You chose that risky action and you must live with it.

Demo's are pretty stupid because they are simply designed to wipe full vet squads. These should come down in price and power, and instead function to help break up blobs, injure infantry, deal with structure, and devastate buildings. I dislike the way in which they can wipe lone squads so easily. To be fair about demo's the goliath is even stupider and needs some slight nerfs.

mines and demos are fine

just be more cautious

There are enough maps with so much ambient buildings that you really can't mine any entrance, so there are always maps where you can choose a commander with infiltration troops + if your opponent spents the time and ammunition to mine the entrances on maps with a lower count of building this is already a ressource and micro win for you. Let them emerge from a safe building on your part of the map or call them from the side of the map if they are worth it. Mines are the only thing that keeps infiltration units from beeing massively op. Compare infiltration to USF falls or glider commandos, this is a fair implementation of calling units directly to a point on the map.

Its not about mining all buildings, rather to not open yourself to attack from the ones you didnt mine. And to bait opponent into the ones you did mine. Btw for example as soviets you only need a tripwire flare, no need to use 30 muni. Same with ostheer, you can place one patch of smines.

If the Soviet player could send his engie there to lay the mine why is it soo much to ask that you send your engie there to remove it? Seriously.. For the first mine removed you made your investment back. Mines are counterable, absolutely. Learn where YOU would place them amd avoiding them becomes easy peasy if you REFUSE to invest in their counter. I lay mines in yellow craters out in open areas, you know what else I do? Dont stuff my squads in yellow craters in open areas until ive swept them... (see how this works?)

If the Soviet player could send his engie there to lay the mine why is it soo much to ask that you send your engie there to remove it? Seriously.. For the first mine removed you made your investment back. Mines are counterable, absolutely. Learn where YOU would place them amd avoiding them becomes easy peasy if you REFUSE to invest in their counter. I lay mines in yellow craters out in open areas, you know what else I do? Dont stuff my squads in yellow craters in open areas until ive swept them... (see how this works?)

Problem is that the mine "issue" is mostly between players who lay mines and ones that don't lie them, so they dont know where they would put them. Luckily its a l2p issue there

Mines (and demos) in their current iteration are easily one of the worst features in the Coh franchise and also perhaps the main reason why the Sov/OH matchup is so imbalanced at present. People who argue that one should just get a sweeper (and of course you have to) and pretend that this dynamic would then constitute viable counterplay baffle me...as if in a 1v1 you could even remotely reliably sweep to any cap...indirectly, this almost forces Ostheer to blob, and it really makes the game unenjoyable and exponentially increases the RNG-factor. Mucho e-sports and shit.
Come to think of it: The worst culprit here of course is the 10 muni door tripwire...which is a mysteriously underused ability anyways.
Even if not deployed in front of a door, 10 munis for a guaranteed model kill? Steal. Not to mention all the potentially cascading benefits, especially against OHs 4 man squads: Renders them unable to crew teamweapons, makes them this more susceptible to AOE wipes, massively influences any 1v1 engagement, etc.

Mines (and demos) in their current iteration are easily one of the worst features in the Coh franchise and also perhaps the main reason why the Sov/OH matchup is so imbalanced at present. People who argue that one should just get a sweeper (and of course you have to) and pretend that this dynamic would then constitute viable counterplay baffle me...as if in a 1v1 you could even remotely reliably sweep to any cap...indirectly, this almost forces Ostheer to blob, and it really makes the game unenjoyable and exponentially increases the RNG-factor. Mucho e-sports and shit.
Come to think of it: The worst culprit here of course is the 10 muni door tripwire...which is a mysteriously underused ability anyways.
Even if not deployed in front of a door, 10 munis for a guaranteed model kill? Steal. Not to mention all the potentially cascading benefits, especially against OHs 4 man squads: Renders them unable to crew teamweapons, makes them this more susceptible to AOE wipes, massively influences any 1v1 engagement, etc.

Fact: it takes more micro to lay a mine than to sweep one.

Fact: mines are hardcountered by minesweepers and softcountered by player awareness and experience.

Mines and minesweepers are absolute. In their performance. Variations occur with player skill levels.

It takes any meaningful sort of micro to plant a mine?
Sweepers "hardcounter" mines? I beg to differ. There is only so much sweeping capability you can actually afford to project on the field, and as Ostheer, which will ceteris paribus always be behind in map presence, there is no such thing as remotely failsafe counterplay to explosives. Mind you, in Coh, there is no such thing as a real hardcounter anyways in any given dynamic - which is a strength of this game - but in this particular case, the discrepancy is out of all proportion. Of course this can be mitigated, ie. by shift-moving around customary mine spots etc., but that does not mean its not broken. Sapienti sat.

It takes any meaningful sort of micro to plant a mine?
Sweepers "hardcounter" mines? I beg to differ. There is only so much sweeping capability you can actually afford to project on the field, and as Ostheer, which will ceteris paribus always be behind in map presence, there is no such thing as remotely failsafe counterplay to explosives. Mind you, in Coh, there is no such thing as a real hardcounter anyways in any given dynamic, but in this particular case, the discrepancy is out of all proportion. Of course this can be mitigated, ie. by shift-moving around customary mine spots etc., but that does not mean its not broken. Sapienti sat.

Thx,You did the work for me

It takes any meaningful sort of micro to plant a mine?
Sweepers "hardcounter" mines? I beg to differ. There is only so much sweeping capability you can actually afford to project on the field, and as Ostheer, which will ceteris paribus always be behind in map presence, there is no such thing as remotely failsafe counterplay to explosives. Mind you, in Coh, there is no such thing as a real hardcounter anyways in any given dynamic - which is a strength of this game - but in this particular case, the discrepancy is out of all proportion. Of course this can be mitigated, ie. by shift-moving around customary mine spots etc., but that does not mean its not broken. Sapienti sat.

I said in comparison to getting a sweeper. It takes more micro. L2r. Laying a mine does require a bit of forethought in terms of placement.

And sweepers do hardcounter mines. They have a very large detection radius that basically lets you see where they are and nullifies infantry and tanks triggering it. they also allow regular non-minesweeper engies remove the mines too. Provided that the mine is revealed.

It's pretty clear that you have made up yournmind in believing mines are op so have fun with that.

I just cant fathom how someone could complain about mines when there are counters available in every faction. Pushing into enemy territory has risks. You either go with a sweeper or fail and come bitch over here i guess

Mines are OP. Period.

So far here are the arguments for mines

infiltration units OP

Possibly. Haven't played enough lately to have much of an opinion on them strength-wise but some maps have a shitload of buildings all over the place and they make it too easy to harass. The answer isn't insta robbing the player that called the unit in though, its increasing the cooldown, or cost, or combat effectiveness, or something of that nature. Two wrongs don't make a right.

use a sweeper you n00b

That only encourages blobbing more to keep all your units around the sweeper unit. Or you could have two smaller blobs with 2 sweepers. Having every unit with a sweeper at all times is not a viable way to play the game at a high level. What if sweeper unit gets focused fired and retreated during a major push, but you still have the momentum. Now just put the brakes on until he returns because otherwise you could lose an entire squad? I don't think so.

An important principle of real war that also applies to games like COH is economy of force. For all you uninitiated out there, that means bringing just enough forces to one area to ensure that you win the engagement, so that you can hold a bigger front, and not overcompensating in places where you shouldn't. In practice that means not wasting time by sending 3 Shocktroops to hunt down one pioneer that is back capping, or bringing something more powerful than a rear echelon to deal with a harassing Obers. When done properly this means you will sometimes have multiple units operating solo, like sending 4 upgraded riflemen to deal with 4 isolated capping Gren squads (assuming the vet and/or weapon upgrades are in your favor).

Dividing your forces properly to capture and hold as much ground as possible is an important skill, which is much more difficult to master than taking 2 seconds to lay a mine. When the amount of front your army is capable of contesting is constrained by the fact that you don't have 2-5 sweepers, that is a problem. Now when you send off a bunch of solo units, it is an expectation that you will hit some mines, but those should only force you retreat and concede that area temporarily, not lose an important unit.

*This is really important. Dividing your troops up correctly, and having the micro skill to multi-task them is the single most important skill to improve at COH. Blobbing your shit to cut down on squad wipes is really detrimental to gameplay. Increase skill gap= profit!?!?!

it takes time/skill to lay mines

It takes no more than 2 seconds to locate a unit that can lay a mine, 1/4 of a second to hit B+M, and ~1 sec to choose a spot and click. You want more skill in laying mines, then reduce the time it takes to place them and the good players will get more mines down. Right now your bottlenecked primarily by the very long construction time, not the lackluster micro requirement. Obviously I don't want more mines until they have been reworked, that needs to happen first.

It rarely happens

Not that rarely. Sometimes you might go several games without it happening, and in my last 2 games (total 30 minutes of playtime) it happened 5 times total to either me or the other guy. So in my last two games, it happened about every 6 minutes. This isn't "shot down plane nuked my army" rare, the mines always kill everyone in blast vicinity, therefore squad wiping 100% when you hit it the right way.

When the amount of front your army is capable of contesting is constrained by the fact that you don't have 2-5 sweepers, that is a problem. Now when you send off a bunch of solo units, it is an expectation that you will hit some mines, but those should only force you retreat and concede that area temporarily, not lose an important unit.

*This is really important. Dividing your troops up correctly, and having the micro skill to multi-task them is the single most important skill to improve to get better. Blobbing your shit to cut down on squad wipes is really detrimental to gameplay. Increase skill gap= profit!?!?!

On the flip side, the enemy often has a limited supply of munitions are only a couple of mine laying units at most. If you see things like weapon upgrades, recon planes, grenades etc then you can safely assume he isn't blowing a ton of munitions on mines and can send your sweepers through the most likely areas. If you see none of those things, it'd be prudent to invest in a second engineer for sweepers. You can even put them in a halftrack and still detect mines.

You don't need to blob to counter mines, you just need to make sure your sweepers are roaming through uncharted territory first. You can also not take the obvious, direct path to the strat points so you walk right into the mines.


It's ironic to be arguing for a bigger skill gap when one of the biggest divides between players is how well they sweep for mines and use game sense to avoid critical losses.


In other words

1. Mines punish simplistic map movement. You have to carefully path your infantry so they don't cross through obvious mine spots.

2. Mines punish a lack of scouting into fog of war or the enemy backline. (Both with recon flares/planes to keep an eye on his engineers and sweepers to check for mines.)

3. The skill ceiling is ultimately higher when players have to consider their movement through the map, and likewise consider the best mine placement to punish that movement.

4. On the defense, using mines to zone out and slow down your opponent is a great strategic skill to have.