30muni mine balance

M I N E S W E E P E R S NOOBS /close thread.

if anything mines should be even more punishing to infantry. It's pretty simple guys. you always come out ontop if you invest 30 munis in a minesweeper.

If your opponent pushed you off.
get a minesweeper.
if you seen a builder unit in your backfield.
get a minesweeper.
if a squad steps on a mine.
get a minesweeper.
if you have to be in 2 places at once.
get 2 minesweepers.

If you step on a mine with vehicles or infantry then IT IS ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT FOR NOT HAVING A MINESWEEPER.

If you need to be somewhere asap and suspect there are mines then spread out your squads and send in cheaper reinforcing squads to eat the mines first eg. ostruppen, cons, volks(?), rears/pios/engies/sappers (but why when you should have a minesweeper. follow up with your fighting infantry on the path cleared out

It's also worth noting that you don't even need to sweep the mines. The detection radius is rather large and mines stay detected for like 10-15 seconds after the sweeper reveals it and can't be detonated by your units. (Other than by damage of course)

if anything mines should be even more punishing to infantry. It's pretty simple guys. you always come out ontop if you invest 30 munis in a minesweeper.

<more stuff>

You are mostly correct on the strategy aspect. However, not all minesweepers are created equal (in the same way to why Volks Schrecks blob >>> PGren Schreck blob); that also depends on the squad that's carrying it (and there's an MP cost attached to that).

We have WFA factions:
- For OKW that comes on a fairly expensive (300 MP, 9 Popcap) unit. You mostly ever need 1 Sturmpioneer & a Mechanized HQ to handle your repairs; anything extra is a burden. Even on the "Oh, it floats so much MP"-faction.
- Yes, Sturmpioneers are extremely potent early game. But do they ever scale to (1) become a venerable threat in the late game or (2) become a utility squad that you NEED to have "because, mines"?
- For USF, you have to put out a fairly weak squad (200 MP), which can't lay mines, and you don't really require for repairs, anyway (you have Vehicle crews for that).

What do these factions have in common in their playstyle? They tend to blob a lot, and over-potent mines punish spreading your forces.

Then, we have EFA factions:
- You need engineers anyway for your tier buildings
- The repair rate for these engineers is terrible, anyway, so you probably need at least 2 squads of them anyway to cover your needs.
- Presto, minesweepers.

And finally you have Brits:
- Their sappers cost slightly more Popcap than USF/EFA factions
- However, UKF sappers are plain awesome (Fast repair speed, 5-man)
- There's really no excuse for not having at least 2 of them.

EDIT:

I'm not saying to completely nullify the AI effects of mines. However, full-health squad wipes are silly. The effects of unswept should include:
- Some MP bleed (by dropping models) -- somebody did pay 30 Munitions for the mine anyway.
- Enough damage to the remaining squadmembers to force a retreat (and, thus, cancel the flank)
- But: No squad wipe, if at full-complement

I think all those that say it's fine and to just get more sweepers are players who don't touch Ostheer.

You are mostly correct on the strategy aspect. However, not all minesweepers are created equal (in the same way to why Volks Schrecks blob >>> PGren Schreck blob); that also depends on the squad that's carrying it (and there's an MP cost attached to that).

*snip*

Honestly you can get by with 1 engineer as long as you're careful about your movement.

Avoid bottlenecks and hop over fences more, avoid the most direct path onto a strat point but instead walk in a big arc, avoid entering or exiting buildings that you don't know are rigged or not. (Just as true for demo charges as it is mines)

Same deal with vehicles. Avoid crossroads and other obvious mine spots. Don't fall for bait or give chase without having a mine sweeper nearby.

I think all those that say it's fine and to just get more sweepers are players who don't touch Ostheer.

I regularly play Ostheer and I think miens are fine and you should just get sweepers.

I have had exactly zero squad wipes from mines in the last....forever? Maybe a poor stormtrooper squad popping out of a building but I should have known better.

I think all those that say it's fine and to just get more sweepers are players who don't touch Ostheer.

wehr is primarily a defensive faction until they reach t3 for their tanks. attacking wehr is pretty punishing if the push doesn't go that well for most allied factions. As soviets, mines act as a defense mechanism that help slow down the wehr defensive creep on your cutoff or fuel if a push does not go as well as hoped and you have a mass retreat on your hands.

pios have great sight range and come with a minesweeper upgrade. why wouldn't you sweep enemy territory. it's just common sense.

The choice is really simple. you either eat a mine with manpower or you eat it with a one-off munition investment.

30 munis mines should wipe full health squads. They should be able to wipe full model damaged squads. I agree with OP. It should hugely dmg squads go the point they have to retreat or get wiped but not outright wipe them.

About minesweepers. They are always necessary against ppl who use mines. However, they can't be on every squad at once. Mines are usually on the enemy side of the map meaning you need to have your fragile engineer squad at the front lines with your infantry and not doing the loads of other things you need them for.

Also agree, they should not wipe full health squads, ever. Like we don't allow mortars to one shot snipers.

wehr is primarily a defensive faction until they reach t3 for their tanks. attacking wehr is pretty punishing if the push doesn't go that well for most allied factions. As soviets, mines act as a defense mechanism that help slow down the wehr defensive creep on your cutoff or fuel if a push does not go as well as hoped and you have a mass retreat on your hands.

pios have great sight range and come with a minesweeper upgrade. why wouldn't you sweep enemy territory. it's just common sense.

The choice is really simple. you either eat a mine with manpower or you eat it with a one-off munition investment.

Thing is, unlike USFs and OKW, ostheer needs his pios for so many more things than those factions. Building the tier structures, repairing vehicles, laying down wire and mines, building caches etc. Guess what, UKF, USFs, and OKW don't need engineers in order to do more than half those things. Also, pios are among the weakest of its type.

There's a reason for engineers having access to minesweepers. I guess you guys want to make this game even MORE blob friendly .

There's a reason for engineers having access to minesweepers. I guess you guys want to make this game even MORE blob friendly .

How does it make flanking anymore rewarding when those units outside of your sweepers have a risk of being instant-gibbed at full? You're more encouraged to blob your inf with your sweepers to protect against wipes.

How does it make flanking anymore rewarding when those units outside of your sweepers have a risk of being instant-gibbed at full? You're more encouraged to blob your inf with your sweepers to protect against wipes.

How is defending flanks with mines a bad thing? You don't need to be under a minesweeper umbrella at all times, you just need to be careful and consider "Hey maybe he has mines protecting his flanks!"

How does it make flanking anymore rewarding when those units outside of your sweepers have a risk of being instant-gibbed at full? You're more encouraged to blob your inf with your sweepers to protect against wipes.

This change would only encourage blobbing even more. The fact that you had to spend munitions on sweepers, and in some cases, another engineer takes away resources that you can use to build up a blob of dedicated combat infantry. When I collected all the proposed changes, and added them together, it would only destroy a good game-play mechanic that belongs in this game. Squad wipes are from a completely different problem, and that problem is squad formation. I'd rather fix something that has been a problem for awhile instead of breaking something to temporarily satisfy this thread.

How is defending flanks with mines a bad thing? You don't need to be under a minesweeper umbrella at all times, you just need to be careful and consider "Hey maybe he has mines protecting his flanks!"

I think it's the nature of any game; when a simpler strategy exists (blobbing), why go for the harder way? (multiple sweepers/flanking etc). Especially if the game punishes you for going the other way (chance of insta-wipes).

For instance with USF, you have the option of getting multiple sweepers to plan out flanks. OR, you just blob one direction, with your minesweeper and just smoke everything that's trying to suppress you.

Other cases where buffing alternatives does not sway people from going the easy way:
- OKW Revamp ostensibly made more strategies than Volksblob available to players. However, since Volksblob is as viable as before, people opt for that one.
- (Projected) If Soviet T1 ever gets buffed to be viable, people will still opt for the Maxim spam (if the Maxim doesn't get nerfed). It's a tried-and-tested spam, after all.

How is defending flanks with mines a bad thing? You don't need to be under a minesweeper umbrella at all times, you just need to be careful and consider "Hey maybe he has mines protecting his flanks!"

This.

If I put like 5 mines to secure my flank (to prevent being flanked from behind) while pushing forward then I excpet that those mines will inflict loses to enemy who will take a bait and run with his infantry to flank me.

I put time and effort to plant mines and same effoert should be put to sweep them.

Idea of not killing but brining models down to 10% HP is just completly out of the moon.

Sure, wiping full health squad is really bad idea, it has huge impact and there should be some line of code which says that full health squads cannot be wiped, but wiping damaged or not full squad should be something normal.

wiping full health squad is really bad idea

wow you got it :V

LOL
There are still people defending mine spam.One of my all time favourite examples is soviet t2-t3-t4(whatever).Try it out!(don't,it just shows low level of skill)

T2 means no ammo needed,which leads to a surplus of ammo - mine(demo)spam.Well mine spam wont be that cost-effective but still they stop the enemy advance for long enough to bring his VPs down or use the fuel advantage to finish it.(or wipe the backbone of his built-gg)

No-brainer imo.Tone them down,focus on side upgrades,which at least demand skill/micro to be used effectively.

Cu
DontKnow

How is defending flanks with mines a bad thing? You don't need to be under a minesweeper umbrella at all times, you just need to be careful and consider "Hey maybe he has mines protecting his flanks!"

He is not saying that defending flanks with mines is a bad thing, he is saying that losing FULL HEALTH SQUAD to a mine is just stupid

LOL
There are still people defending mine spam.One of my all time favourite examples is soviet t2-t3-t4(whatever).Try it out!(don't,it just shows low level of skill)

T2 means no ammo needed,which leads to a surplus of ammo - mine(demo)spam.Well mine spam wont be that cost-effective but still they stop the enemy advance for long enough to bring his VPs down or use the fuel advantage to finish it.(or wipe the backbone of his built-gg)

No-brainer imo.Tone them down,focus on side upgrades,which at least demand skill/micro to be used effectively.

Cu
DontKnow

Blame Soviets design, lack of upgrades, not mines.

And by the way, I thought mines spam is meant to stop enemy's advance for lng enough to bring VPs down If not, what's the purpose for mines?

And what's next? Nerf teller mine cause it kills my full health T70?