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russian armor

T34/85 vs Tiger meta was the best

17 Apr 2016, 19:35 PM
#21
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2



Isnt boring and repetitive something you dont want? o_O it was fun for like 10 games max. it RAPIDLY got to the point where winning just because I could stall behind some sandbags, build 120mm paintraininstawipe and guards, and then float MP so I can pop out the Red Banner flottila of t3485 reinforcements,(and if im winning, pop out a SECOND pair not much later.) got so utterly, utterly old.

Losing to it was the exact same way. Some of my most blood pressure inducing moments were playing that meta as Ostheer.



whats the difference?

Teching to T3/T4 as germans, or even LULZIER, :snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter: being resource penalty OKW vs guard motor soviet.....god bless the okw player.

; simply getting ONE tank was much more expensive than just stalling one SET of 85s, and as I said before in this post, by 22 mins if you didnt tech at all besides T1T2, meant another pair was coming, as they used to cost what 245 fuel a pair? Calling in your first set usually left you with 130-140, maybe less if you were struggling a bit. How was that fair at ALL when all ostheer had was like a stug or two(which went down nigh instantly to mark vehicle, old stug HP :snfPeter: :snfPeter::snfPeter:, and OKW had a panther/jp4?(which also got deleted by mark vehicle)

It goes against basic coh core(or what I think is coh core) which is do well in your engagements, take map control so you can tech and then build better stuff than your opponent can and win.

Not simply STALL and get better stuff than your opponent thats clearly outplaying and outteching you, and then win more often than not. Yes it was possible to punish a staller, but that still doesnt mean the meta wasnt ass.


Well you're using your own experience as an argument right here which is okay but honestly you shouldn't draw any balance conclusions from it. When looking at high level soviet vs wehr matchups from early-mid 2014 you will notice that the balance was actually pretty decent. One would argue that soviets might have been slightly easier to handle while wehrmacht peaked a little higher in overall faction strenght when in the hands of an extremely competent player like Jesulin but that's up for debate and I don't have any stats on it.

You're also ignoring the fact that both factions were equally heavily reliant on call ins. So you can't really say that the non existing importance of teching caused balance problems. However I do agree with you that it interfers with some of the basic ideas of CoH core gameplay and thus wasn't a perfect solution but it didn't completely remove said core mechanics either. It just reduced their importance to a reasonable degree.
17 Apr 2016, 19:36 PM
#22
avatar of GenObi

Posts: 556

And this is why relic does not balance around low level play or above 2v2s
17 Apr 2016, 19:40 PM
#23
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2016, 19:06 PMGiaA


He will also have lost the game at the 10 min mark which goes to show that even the very few options players have only exist on paper.


Hardly.
17 Apr 2016, 19:45 PM
#24
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2



Hardly.


Well assuming the players are skilled equally it is basically a self inflicted death sentence for the US player.
17 Apr 2016, 19:56 PM
#25
avatar of CookiezNcreem
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2016, 19:35 PMGiaA


Well you're using your own experience as an argument right here which is okay but honestly you shouldn't draw any balance conclusions from it. When looking at high level soviet vs wehr matchups from early-mid 2014 you will notice that the balance was actually pretty decent. One would argue that soviets might have been slightly easier to handle while wehrmacht peaked a little higher in overall faction strenght when in the hands of an extremely competent player like Jesulin but that's up for debate and I don't have any stats on it.


I brought up balance a bit but thats not really the focus of what I was trying to say there. Balance can be argued 100x over, but its simple fact that it cost more to tech than to callin units.

Those same callin units did well against and in some cases, even outnumbered teched units which goes against what coh should be in my opinion. Yeah ostheer had their own in the tiger pakwall with teller combo, and that made it "balanced" but lemme steal your phrase here: "in theory" it wasn't really that fun, for any level of play.

btw, Why shouldn't I draw balance conclusions? I lost to moron soviet players that could do this amazingly lame meta, while also constantly beating people ranked higher than me because I could play guard motor myself. And everything in between, of course. It was a terrible meta. It was "balanced" i guess, but it was shit.

I have nothing else to say really.
17 Apr 2016, 20:04 PM
#26
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2016, 18:46 PMGiaA


Yes it was, the game during that time wasn't just a conistent flow of small to medium engagements like it is today. It had highs and lows, ranging from extremely intense tank battles to slow sort of "build up" phases.
The games I've seen from the ESL cups didn't have such a dynamic. There were small engagements all over the map throughout the entire game and at some point one player managed to get a small advantage and overcome his opponent.

Also the map issue is just as prevalent as it used to be.


I don't see how a consistent flow of small to medium engagements with a much bigger variety in units, including light vehicles, light tanks and medium tanks, can is some way be less fun than having a boring predictable metagame where there is only a limited selection of infantry spammed for most of the game and one big tank battle at the end.
17 Apr 2016, 20:09 PM
#27
avatar of Rollo

Posts: 738

Pretty much what cookiez said, it was stale and boring to play against which is why there was so much asspain from the forums to have things to be shaken up meta wise.

You had a grand total of what? two soviet doctrines being used, Guards motor and shock rifle vs mech assault for months on end

Interesting, you got to be having a giraffe ain't ya m9?
17 Apr 2016, 20:15 PM
#28
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

No thanks. Back in those days 75% of all units and commanders were useless. The game is a lot more varied and fun now.


This.

You're only nostalgic mate, nothing more. Remember StuG-E to Tiger meta? I remember streamers quitting a game as soon as they saw Ost player picked the commander.
17 Apr 2016, 20:46 PM
#29
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1384

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2016, 19:45 PMGiaA


Well assuming the players are skilled equally it is basically a self inflicted death sentence for the US player.



No it isn't.

Having those upgrades earlier means you win early game fights easier. Especially if you use the ambulance to keep units in the field.

You just can't rush light vehicles as hard, which is the preference for most USF players. Delaying your tech by 1 minute is never a game ending decision, especially when you're getting utility out of it.



17 Apr 2016, 20:58 PM
#30
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2016, 17:58 PMGiaA


tbh teching is a mere formality in coh2, it's there but it doesn't really promote decision making nor does it serve any other important purpose.


dont get me wrong but all faction right now have option to stall a bit with more infantry into medium tank or try it with light one.


Yes if you are winning early game you should presssure with light vehicle but sometimes it can be better to just turtle it , hold against that vehicle with mines and then outcome opponents with medium.

I know this does not happen s often because of early vehicles inpact but still if they nerfed them a bit , i think it could a be a lot interesting.
17 Apr 2016, 21:00 PM
#31
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1617

No thanks. Back in those days 75% of all units and commanders were useless. The game is a lot more varied and fun now.


You wut?

Fun & variety?? Lets see:

Sov - Must have a call-in infantry and tanks (motor, shock rifle, isu, leand lease)...much fun with a crappy stock army :romeoMug:

Maxims into call-ins, it is indeed fun after the 10th game :snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter:

USF - Hmmm....this one is even better, go rifles every game, then get M1919/Bars blob up, go Calliope/Pershing.

Try to hunt down retarded ost sniper :sibToxic::hansRAGE::hansGASM:

Lovely :sibPheasant:


Britz - My gosh, where to begin...oi! They are the cancer of this game with Okw. Ez pz getting Land-Mattress/croc/cancer :snfQuinn: pit/cancer :snfQuinn: regiment with an army of comets or cromwells :brad:


OKW - Brit's :wub: Being a bitch with Kübel + Sturm in early game, then making the shreckblobofA-move --> luchs or quick p4, sometimes a few isgs. :romeoPls:

Ostheer - P4 command tank or a Tiger with Stug-es sitting behind an army of lmg grens, a OPsniper and pak wall.


Oh...and the RNG momments, squad wipes, door mines. :loco::hansRAGE:

Is it fun?


Its balanced and somehow playable at some points, but one of the most unfun meta we've had so far.
17 Apr 2016, 21:10 PM
#32
avatar of siuking666

Posts: 707

Guard motor, Shock Rifle call in abuse? No thanks. gtfo
17 Apr 2016, 21:22 PM
#33
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1



You wut?

Fun & variety?? Lets see:

Sov - Must have a call-in infantry and tanks (motor, shock rifle, isu, leand lease)...much fun with a crappy stock army :romeoMug:

Maxims into call-ins, it is indeed fun after the 10th game :snfPeter::snfPeter::snfPeter:

USF - Hmmm....this one is even better, go rifles every game, then get M1919/Bars blob up, go Calliope/Pershing.

Try to hunt down retarded ost sniper :sibToxic::hansRAGE::hansGASM:

Lovely :sibPheasant:


Britz - My gosh, where to begin...oi! They are the cancer of this game with Okw. Ez pz getting Land-Mattress/croc/cancer :snfQuinn: pit/cancer :snfQuinn: regiment with an army of comets or cromwells :brad:


OKW - Brit's :wub: Being a bitch with Kübel + Sturm in early game, then making the shreckblobofA-move --> luchs or quick p4, sometimes a few isgs. :romeoPls:

Ostheer - P4 command tank or a Tiger with Stug-es sitting behind an army of lmg grens, a OPsniper and pak wall.


Oh...and the RNG momments, squad wipes, door mines. :loco::hansRAGE:

Is it fun?


Its balanced and somehow playable at some points, but one of the most unfun meta we've had so far.


I don't agree with this at all.

Are some strategies better than others? Yes, there still are some strategies that are better than others. However, the difference between the current state of the game and the days of call-in meta is that non-optimal strategies are not vastly inferior to optimal strategies. Back in the call-in meta days, you either played the meta or you faced a huge up-hill battle against the enemy. Wanted to use a panzer 4? Fck you! You will now have to fight 2 T34/85s with 1 panzer 4 that gets instantly marked for death. I ended up just quiting games when I saw the enemy using certain doctrines because I was not fond of metagaming and playing nonmeta was just impossible unless you greatly outskilled your opponent. These days, you can deviate quite far from the meta and still end up with an army that can challenge a person that is metagaming.
17 Apr 2016, 22:14 PM
#34
avatar of Jaedrik

Posts: 446 | Subs: 2

Teching being a formality: yes.
There's not much actual strategy involved in teching IMO.
18 Apr 2016, 01:26 AM
#35
avatar of Mistah_S

Posts: 851 | Subs: 1

Guard motor, Shock Rifle call in abuse? No thanks. gtfo


You have no idea how many scrubs I've come across that do this. Or Maxim spam...
I can barely do a thing as OKW against this trat
18 Apr 2016, 01:43 AM
#36
avatar of siuking666

Posts: 707



You have no idea how many scrubs I've come across that do this. Or Maxim spam...
I can barely do a thing as OKW against this trat


maxim/sniper spam into Guards, build a couple of ZiS to hold off Panzer IV.

Guard motor? Build 2 120mm instant wipe mortars
10CP? Call in 4-6 T34/85 for maximum abuse.

Shock Rifle? KV8 + 2x IS2 for another type of maximum abuse.

No tech as Ostheer almost means you're screwed. Yet even if you tech up, a Panzer IV isn't gonna help against IS2 or T34/85
18 Apr 2016, 01:55 AM
#37
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4

The month before they dropped the giant shit of WFA on the game was the most balanced the game has ever been. They finally fixed all the March deployment problems and the Ostheer versus Soviets meta was varied and fair. Even t1 builds were practical.

The game is better now, no denying it, all the changes to teching and pacing have improved the game. Balance was still best between 2 armies created opposing each other though.
18 Apr 2016, 02:01 AM
#38
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2016, 01:55 AMTobis
The month before they dropped the giant shit of WFA on the game was the most balanced the game has ever been. They finally fixed all the March deployment problems and the Ostheer versus Soviets meta was varied and fair. Even t1 builds were practical.

The game is better now, no denying it, all the changes to teching and pacing have improved the game. Balance was still best between 2 armies created opposing each other though.

And then free trucks drove into Allied infantry so they autolose firefights, providing one of the weirdest balance issues I've ever seen in my gaming career.
18 Apr 2016, 03:17 AM
#39
avatar of Mistah_S

Posts: 851 | Subs: 1



maxim/sniper spam into Guards, build a couple of ZiS to hold off Panzer IV.

Guard motor? Build 2 120mm instant wipe mortars
10CP? Call in 4-6 T34/85 for maximum abuse.

Shock Rifle? KV8 + 2x IS2 for another type of maximum abuse.

No tech as Ostheer almost means you're screwed. Yet even if you tech up, a Panzer IV isn't gonna help against IS2 or T34/85


Thanks, but I dont need more tactics on how to rape OKW; I need tactics as OKW to prevent this sort of shite. Panzerfuselliers can only do so much against a horde like that...

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2016, 02:01 AMVuther

And then free trucks drove into Allied infantry so they autolose firefights, providing one of the weirdest balance issues I've ever seen in my gaming career.


Wat?
18 Apr 2016, 04:33 AM
#40
avatar of Waegukin

Posts: 609

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2016, 02:01 AMVuther

And then free trucks drove into Allied infantry so they autolose firefights, providing one of the weirdest balance issues I've ever seen in my gaming career.


Oh man truck crushing was hilarious :D
I remember a gif with shocks being crushed by an OKW command truck, but I can't seem to find it now :/
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