Community Lead Balance Team

We had great cruzz mod. Now we have epic miragefla mod. I don't know if its a pride factor or sth but relic refuses to implement changes from these mods. There is not much more community can do to help them out.

as much as I respect Miragefla and cruzz, I must say that I am not a fan of many of their respective mod.

the main problem of a community balance mod is that people are not likely going to accept the balance changes unless it's forced down their throat.

This will never happen not because it's a bad idea--vCOH was actually at its most balanced when it handed over reigns to someone in the community--but because their bread and butter is releasing these new commanders.

And they want these new commanders to be OP to start so people buy them.

It's kind of sad :/

I think you guys are forgetting people that actually have experience modding, those playing 1v1 and 2v2s exclusively probably have no idea on how to implement the balance changes while people like migra have different ideas and opinions on how balance changes would work and can be implemented since he's worked with the game engine, it will end up the same, 1v1 pros telling the balance guy to do this and this while the balance guy tells me that's not possible or it won't work or it can't be implemented and both parties will have to split up because they won't agree to each other.

This will never happen not because it's a bad idea--vCOH was actually at its most balanced when it handed over reigns to someone in the community--but because their bread and butter is releasing these new commanders.

And they want these new commanders to be OP to start so people buy them.

It's kind of sad :/

While OFC they want the new commanders to sell I doubt that their overall intention is to make the game unplayable and a balance mess. I understand players being upset with "OP commanders" but it takes a while for them to balance the commander making the issues a large community priority for complaining. Handing it to community devs and multiple players who play 1v1 all the way up to 4v4 heroes would do the game some good. It doesn't take a genius to make a few of these changes that are presented in Mirage and Cruzz patch.


EDIT: Remember we would need community members who aren't only 1v1 players but play large team games as well, 4v4 can be balanced just relic has never tried to adjust it. We don't have to reach perfect balance but some quality of life things have been needing adjusting for over 2 years.

I think you guys are forgetting people that actually have experience modding, those playing 1v1 and 2v2s exclusively probably have no idea on how to implement the balance changes while people like migra have different ideas and opinions on how balance changes would work and can be implemented since he's worked with the game engine, it will end up the same, 1v1 pros telling the balance guy to do this and this while the balance guy tells me that's not possible or it won't work or it can't be implemented and both parties will have to split up because they won't agree to each other.

In some cases you are right but in most cases ballance is about tweaking a number in unit stats. These stats are what competitive players know most about. But they not only understand stats, like many stat diggers do, they also can exploit even smallest changes in these stats due to their micro skills. That means they usually can see ballance issues before anybody else, so they are right people to ask about things to change. They also know best how tiny stat difference can change gameplay so they wont ever do nerf to the ground or buff into OP things like relic often did.

I think you guys are forgetting people that actually have experience modding, those playing 1v1 and 2v2s exclusively probably have no idea on how to implement the balance changes while people like migra have different ideas and opinions on how balance changes would work and can be implemented since he's worked with the game engine, it will end up the same, 1v1 pros telling the balance guy to do this and this while the balance guy tells me that's not possible or it won't work or it can't be implemented and both parties will have to split up because they won't agree to each other.

I don't expect modders to implement new mechanics (although it has been proven that it can be done, for example manual reload) but balancing obvious problems and easy QoL changes can be done.

We can discuss fine tuning and have difference of opinions in small subjects, but there are glaring issues that 95% of non biased players can agree with.
-Letting the player have more control over it's units. Manual reload or hold fire on more units.
-Fixing oversights by Relic. 120mm popcap, 222 fuel cost, 222 MG arc of fire, size of different support weapons, unnecessary ninja changes, etc.
-Shenanigans like ghost sandbags/wire.

You know it doesn't take an expert to balance this, or any, game. Skill in CoH2 is based around the ability to micro and get into your opponent's head.

Neither are important in developing, designing, and balancing the factions and maps of this game. Being aware of the type and level of skill required to excel at this game is important, but having those skills isn't. But seriously, it's the maps and their territory/resource limitations that are the biggest culprit to gameplay issues IMO for CoH2.

The biggest issue with this game is not balance anyways but the incredibly poor engine and unit pathfinding. Units don't respond to micro both due to high input lag but also because their movements tends to be on-rails.

This game controls so incredibly bad. There are no examples of good micro in ESL. It's always metagaming and RNG that wins. It's literally a f*cking joke to anyone that's a fan of esports in general who can see the total lack of skill in this game.

I have very little faith in the majority of the CoH2 community to make sound balance decisions based on what's posted on the balance forums.

I have very little faith in the majority of the CoH2 community to make sound balance decisions based on what's posted on the balance forums.

If we comprise it and possible put it to a vote on who would be in. OFC Relic should verify all changes before going forward and pushing said balance pass.

Seeking player feedback is always important but I'm not a huge fan of community-led balance because it is hard for those in control to remain impartial. First, they all have their own preconceived notions of how the game should be, and their own experience with the game will never be truly representative of what the play base as a whole experiences.

Second is the issue of elitism. As in most communities competitive 1v1 players are the most vocal with their complaints. That game mode is important but team players have the right to demand an enjoyable time in those game modes also. There is also the risk of arguments over balance devolving into pissing contest over who has more rank. Truth be told pro 1v1 players usually do know more about the game, but nonetheless their experiences reflect a minority of the player base.

Third is the tendency for bandwagoning over certain issues. Anyone who's browsed these forums for a while will have seen how certain gameplay issues become a hot topic, tons of threads made on them, everyone complaining that they're the worst thing ever. It usually starts with one reputable player complaining, then everyone else jumps on board because that's just how internet forums work. So the problem with this is that a community dev team would be more susceptible to disproportionate responses to minor issues.

So I think the best system is one where you have a dev team that listens to player feedback but is able to step back from the game and make more impartial decisions. Having a few community members to act as a kind of liaison who collate issues and propose possible solutions is good, but final say should rest with someone who isn't so attached to the game.
As for maps though, community maps are great and I support more of that.

So I think the best system is one where you have a dev team that listens to player feedback but is able to step back from the game and make more impartial decisions. Having a few community members to act as a kind of liaison who collate issues and propose possible solutions is good, but final say should rest with someone who isn't so attached to the game.
As for maps though, community maps are great and I support more of that.

+1

Too much fanboyism in open balances discussions to reach a good general consensus.
Get a group of community trusted members to sign an NDA so they can act as liaisons between Relic and sort through all the community balances discussions (twitch, youtube, COH2.org, Reddit etc.). It saves Relic time not having to sort through all the balances discussions by themselves.

Voted 'need more data'.

The implementation is FAR more important than the actual idea. While mods can fix bugs and such in an unbiased way, balancing a game is a bit trickier. You'd need to create a panel of top-tier players who are actually top-tier in both 1v1 and 2v2 with all five factions. That's just to get a good foundation going.

From there you need a "mission statement" that basically answers the following:

• How should each faction play when perfectly balanced?
  
• Is this balance for all players, or exclusively 'top-tier' players?
  
• How far from vanilla can we go?
  

This is exceedingly important for the community not to become insanely divided and ultimately disinterested in the project.

The first question is fairly self explanatory: How does each faction play once the mod is 'done'? Are infantry blobs something we actually want? Should factions stay similar to their current play-style? Should factions change to increase diversity?

The second question is very critical to get mass engagement from the player base. Simply put, the average player isn't all that great (I'm certainly not - best case I'm top 250 as 1v1 ost, 500+ with others). Do we account for that? Something that's balanced for a pro-tier player (ex. high micro cost) could be very imbalanced for the average player. But something balanced for the average player (CoH1's pios) can become broken in the hands of a pro (CoH1's pio spam). Who wins in this situation?

Lastly, how far from vanilla would this team be able to go? Small tweaks will probably work for the majority of things, but what happens when something becomes fundamentally broken? Would replacing brit emplacements entirely with their mobile counterparts be acceptable? Would transforming Ost into an elite-infantry "quality over quantity" faction be possible? What about reducing Rifle's "dual upgrades" to a single slot, thus removing their "jack of all trades" viability?

Then lastly you have the issue with promotion. This could be literally the greatest mod of all time, turning CoH2 into the single most balanced and perfected game of all time: but it doesn't matter if no one plays it. Without Relic's direct support, it would never become visible to the majority of the player base (main menu article thing?). Even then, you'd still be left with custom games, which while fun, just won't replace the ladder and matchmaking for some.



So yea, go for it, but there's no guarantee of success. It's been tried before, and it's failed before - mostly because of the above issues. But if it DOES work, it could be great.

Kyle said "I think sexton is fine" on twitch. this is state of relic.

Kyle said "I think sexton is fine" on twitch. this is state of relic.

Kyle job isn't really to deal with balance, but with salt.

I would love to see such abomination, even better idea, we will create 5 teams for each faction, totally isolated from each other and with absolute freedom, it will be glorious.

FUll auto Jagdtiger anyone?
Commando with 900 AP
Mortar that fire NUKES!
LMG 42 with LASERS

community balance patches are seriously required right now, since Lelic is working on other projects but yea, balance team must consists of really pros, 1v1, 2v2, that know a thing or two

Lol imagine the glorious cluster f uck if that was the case.

Balance from Pro ? Its be the same like in forums here.