USSR's Defenses - Way to "heal" Soviets

Here we talk about USSR again. I swear, next post will be about axis But now:

We all know about coception of "assymetrical balance", which means that factions can't be similar and all should have some powerfull sides, but some weak also. Like OP Riflemans with low power of tanks of USF or no artillery or snipers for OKW for exchange to top-tanks in game and nice spec-ops infantry.

From this concept, USSR designed to be very offencive faction (there was some scheme from Relic, showed playstyles of factions, would be nice if you find it). Guess, because of that USSR has absolutely NO defensive positions, even doctrinal. No bunkers, no fiering positions, no heavy AT guns...

But in exchange to "no-defenses" USSR getting... what? Good/OP infantry? But no, stock soviet infantry are worst infantry in game and doctrinals... even they are not that cool, as UK Tommyrifles, for example, or oberSSuldaten. Maybe good/OP tanks? But no, UK and all Axis factions have way better tanks both in stock and in doctrines. Only better thing in USSR is wide choise of artillery (B-4, ML-20, Katyusha), but artillery is support-type unit, not combat. That's not, that "offencive" faction should be powerfull in, don't you think?

So, If USSR haven't anything, that could make them really powerfull in offencive game... maybe Relic should give them something for deffensive?

I suggest to give to USSR defensive structures, like DShK MG position (USSR's base defense). That MG position would also heal 1 important problem in game - maximspam. For expample - I have to spam maxims in 4-5 squads, because when I capture all points what I need (fuel + VPs) I have to protect them from enemy comeback, so I need defenses, and only MG (for to stop infantry attacks) that I have is... Maxim. Maxim wasn't designed to be deffensive, so it covers only small area by fire so... I have to call more and more, for to close all frontline possible breaches.

In meantime, Ostheers or USF can build MG points there and use them, as breachclosing tools. That's cheaper (in MP), takes no popcost and you shouldn't spam your MG units (because of that, I suppouse, MG-42 spam is pretty rare, such as Vikkers or 0.50) and requiers way lesser microcontrol, cos bunkers works like Javeline rockets (shoot and forget), but here it is "build and forget". It will be way lesser headache for USSR players.

There also can be added long-time ago asked doctrinal BS-3 AT gun. It may be used in doctrines instead of such abilities like "Call M-42" or "Hit the dirt" or something like that useless. What for? Because it is ridiculous to see, that top AT-gun of USSR ISU-152 can't penetrate with AP frontal armor of Panther (saw that a lot), while Elephants and Jagdtigers doing whatever they like with IS-2 or same ISU. USSR should get something really powerfull in AT, for to have real counter to KTs, JTs and other overarmored beasts.

If you think, that giving defenses to USSR will break game balance, then... I suggest to start to buff main soviet offencive units. Make soviet infantry more reliable, make soviet tanks more powerfull. Maybe some infantry/armour units should be buffed to overpowerd level. It might sound ridiculous, but again - USSR has no defenses at all, understand it. So it would be very fair to compensate that huge loss with some OP infantry and tank units. But OP infantry right now are in other factions and OP tanks... mostly Axis and UK's.

I suggest to give to USSR defensive structures, like DShK MG position (USSR's base defense). That MG position would also heal 1 important problem in game - maximspam. For expample - I have to spam maxims in 4-5 squads, because when I capture all points what I need (fuel + VPs) I have to protect them from enemy comeback, so I need defenses, and only MG (for to stop infantry attacks) that I have is... Maxim. Maxim wasn't designed to be deffensive, so it covers only small area by fire so... I have to call more and more, for to close all frontline possible breaches.

Or, instead of making more maxims, you can just build 2 maxims and use their excellent mobility to defend your territory.

Or, instead of making more maxims, you can just build 2 maxims and use their excellent mobility to defend your territory.

That excellent mobility requiers from you way more micro, than just building bunkers on important lanes or making more MGs.

But in exchange to "no-defenses" USSR getting... what?

Mobile units, many of which are relatively cheap for their class (i.e t-34/76 only 300/80) which allows them to overwhelm their opponent through sheer numbers. They also have a ton of flexibility, with conscripts able to merge into other squads to keep them in the fight longer. They can also recrew weapons and vehicles and stay in the field.

They also used to have a really flexible tech structure, allowing them to often dictate the flow of the match or react to their opponent. Like OKW, their tech structure got neutered in favour of being more traditional.

They also have great doctrine abilities and units. Even just looking at their white common commanders it's pretty clear that Soviets were meant to use their doctrines to get stuff while Germany was more support abilities for existing units. DLC has since altered that heavily, giving ostheer bullshit like panic puma. They still have the choice of T1/T2 in the beginning which does make things interesting.



I still maintain that Soviets original design was their best design.

Changes I would make:

-Elite infantry should be built from Tier 1 and not call ins. Doctrine would unlock the option to build them. Heavy mortar would also need to be built at the support kompany.
-T3 and T4 should be possible to pick between, what I would do is put SU76 and T-34/76 in Tier 3 and T70 and Su85 in Tier 4. This would give them slightly different playstyles but both would have the option of a light vehicle, medium vehicle, anti infantry and anti tank. (Plus halftracks which are fine where they are)
-Zis, SU76 and Su85 would get vehicle detection, not infantry detection, when they activate their vet 1 ability

Multiplayer shouldn't be balanced around people not knowing how to micro their units, especially people who do not know how to micro easy-to-use units such as the maxim. Maxims have sprint, fast set-up time (too fast even) and fast pack-up time. They also suppress enemy units quite fast. You should have no problem defending your territories with this unit.

If you don't want to micro but just want to play some relaxing camping simulator instead of CoH2, you should just play some comp-stomp games. Nothing wrong with that, plenty of people find that more enjoyable than online play. But please, don't try to ruin the game for the rest of us.

Mobile units, many of which are relatively cheap for their class (i.e t-34/76 only 300/80) which allows them to overwhelm their opponent through sheer numbers. They also have a ton of flexibility, with conscripts able to merge into other squads to keep them in the fight longer. They can also recrew weapons and vehicles and stay in the field.

They also used to have a really flexible tech structure, allowing them to often dictate the flow of the match or react to their opponent. Like OKW, their tech structure got neutered in favour of being more traditional.

1. All other factions have a lot of very mobile units, so USSR here is not uniqe.

2. Cheapness of units hardly compensated with their powers. Same T-34-76 is weakest middle MBT tank in game. If that would be same powerfull as Pz4 for that price - I would agree that cheapness in benefit. But here it is compensated and nerfed with lower efficiency, so what for I need cheap, but totally weak or useless units?

3. Flexibilty with conscripts? Such as? They are worst mainline infantry in game. Very slow rate of fire, low and random accuracy, worst grenades in game equiped with... USF Riflemans are flexible, since you can give them different guns, Tommyrifles are flexible with side upgrades and same guns... Conscripts? Just trash. I don't even use them, since I learned how maximspam works.

4. About Teching and Tiers. T1 is absolutely useless, since it has only 1 (!) real combat unit - snipers. Penals are infantry without purpouse today and M3 Car... Buying that is just throwing your money on nothing. And situation with T3/T4 is very strange, cos I mostly don't need T4, since SU-76 became so effective, that it can punch down even King Tigers, lol. Only reason to build T4 for people today is Katyusha. And T-34-85 sometimes.

5. About "Great doctrines". They are no more great, than all other faction's doctrines. That's ridiculous, that USSR getting with doctrines that kind of units, which other factions have in stock! All normal (not good, normal) infantry - in doctrines. All normal tanks - in doctrines. That doctrinal addiction of USSR is not their plus, but minus. It just cripples them.

Multiplayer shouldn't be balanced around people not knowing how to micro their units, especially people who do not know how to micro easy-to-use units such as the maxim. Maxims have sprint, fast set-up time (too fast even) and fast pack-up time. They also suppress enemy units quite fast. You should have no problem defending your territories with this unit.

If you don't want to micro but just want to play some relaxing camping simulator instead of CoH2, you should just play some comp-stomp games. Nothing wrong with that, plenty of people find that more enjoyable than online play. But please, don't try to ruin the game for the rest of us.

My comment was not about "It reqiuers micro, which I can't into". I wanted to say, that using Maxims in defensive requiers way MORE micro, than for all other factions. How much micro you need for to build MG-42 bunker? Press few buttons, + pressing few more for to repair it. Maxim requiers helluva concentration on them for to use them effectiviely. That's just not fair, that I should exhaust myself playing, while others can concentrate their attention on something more important than "AI-crowd-control-defenses". Don't you agree?

Whatever you say about "Maxim pluses" - it's all very questionable, and sprint, and fast setup/packup, and fast supression... That's for another discussion, ok?

So your solution to solving Maxim spam is:


Let Soviets build HMG emplacements?

So your solution to solving Maxim spam is:


Let Soviets build HMG emplacements?

It's also solution of "not working design of USSR". If it can't be made good as "only-offencive" faction, then let it be deffensive also.

And yea, HMG emplacements can solve problem of maxim spam. MG emplacements in all factions wokrs as "alternative deffensive MGs", cheaper in MP, but with additional ammocost. I guess, if we will remove MG bunkers from Ostheers, for expample, MG-42 spam will become real too. They will make 3-5 MG-42's for to cover wide frontline from infantry attacks.

Right now they use instead of "3-5 MG-42's" 1-2 MG-42 and 3-6 bunkers all around. You could say, that Ostheers also use "MG-spam", like USSR, but spamming bunkers with those.

Make MG emplacements for USSR and Maxims will be less requierd as deffensive MG, and will become only offensive, just as it suppoused to be.

1. All other factions have a lot of very mobile units, so USSR here is not uniqe.

2. Cheapness of units hardly compensated with their powers. Same T-34-76 is weakest middle MBT tank in game. If that would be same powerfull as Pz4 for that price - I would agree that cheapness in benefit. But here it is compensated and nerfed with lower efficiency, so what for I need cheap, but totally weak or useless units?

3. Flexibilty with conscripts? Such as? They are worst mainline infantry in game. Very slow rate of fire, low and random accuracy, worst grenades in game equiped with... USF Riflemans are flexible, since you can give them different guns, Tommyrifles are flexible with side upgrades and same guns... Conscripts? Just trash. I don't even use them, since I learned how maximspam works.

4. About Teching and Tiers. T1 is absolutely useless, since it has only 1 (!) real combat unit - snipers. Penals are infantry without purpouse today and M3 Car... Buying that is just throwing your money on nothing. And situation with T3/T4 is very strange, cos I mostly don't need T4, since SU-76 became so effective, that it can punch down even King Tigers, lol. Only reason to build T4 for people today is Katyusha. And T-34-85 sometimes.

5. About "Great doctrines". They are no more great, than all other faction's doctrines. That's ridiculous, that USSR getting with doctrines that kind of units, which other factions have in stock! All normal (not good, normal) infantry - in doctrines. All normal tanks - in doctrines. That doctrinal addiction of USSR is not their plus, but minus. It just cripples them.

1. America is the only one with nearly as much as mobility as Soviets. Soviets got sprinting infantry, fast set up machine guns and super fast light vehicles.

2. For the cost of one OKW PzIV you can nearly have two t-34's. Two beats one everytime.

3. Molotovs are cheap and effective, AT grenades are excellent. Merge lets them support other squads. Sandbag cover is solid and builds quite quickly. They're fast and cheap, making them great flanking and capping units. With doctrines like hit the dirt and PPSH they became a real threat as well.

4. Penals are great early game, they got way better damage than scripts up close and the flamer is a solid choice. Satchel charges are also pretty useful against bunkers and houses. M3 is also plenty useful when used properly.

5. Soviets doctrines are the highest impact on playstyle by far.

Make MG emplacements for USSR and Maxims will be less requierd as deffensive MG, and will become only offensive, just as it suppoused to be.

You have forgot to mention the part where maxim will be nerfed.

1. America is the only one with nearly as much as mobility as Soviets. Soviets got sprinting infantry, fast set up machine guns and super fast light vehicles.

2. For the cost of one OKW PzIV you can nearly have two t-34's. Two beats one everytime.

3. Molotovs are cheap and effective, AT grenades are excellent. Merge lets them support other squads. Sandbag cover is solid and builds quite quickly. They're fast and cheap, making them great flanking and capping units. With doctrines like hit the dirt and PPSH they became a real threat as well.

4. Penals are great early game, they got way better damage than scripts up close and the flamer is a solid choice. Satchel charges are also pretty useful against bunkers and houses. M3 is also plenty useful when used properly.

5. Soviets doctrines are the highest impact on playstyle by far.

1. Maybe we have different understanding of word "mobility" concerning that game. I can't say that soviet army is very mobile. No FHQs, no FRPs - that means that infantry is not mobile already, cos they need more time to retreat, move back... Tanks are not very mobile too, SU tanks are long-range punchers and T-34-76 isn't tank for T4. Compare mobility of soviet armour with mobility of Axis with "Blitzkrieg"powerd tanks and fast itself Panthers. Armour mobility is for Axis here, no questions.

2. Yea, but problem is - T-34-76 is my only middle-universal tank in stock and it comes in latest T4. It costs not so much fuel, but all tiers, that you need for to get it... That low fuel price just compensate those spending on tiers. And about "2 T-34-76 beats 1 Pz4 for same price". Ok, I can agree, but if I have only T-34-76, my enemy has also Panthers. Anyway, in CoH 2 rule "quantity over quality" doesn't work. Here it is "quality over quantity".

3. Molotovs are cheap, but they are not effective. Slowest throwing in game, no impact damage, pretty low DoT... OKW's Flame grenade is way more effective, I should say. And Ost Rifle grenade is 10 times more effective. At nades are excellent... You have to pay for them, while more effective (in stats) faust is free2get. I like that part since very start of CoH 2. Merge is situative ability, OKW and UK also have sandbags, they are fast and cheap but totaly can't into fight. Again - lowest rate of fire in game, very low accuracy... They can ran fast, cap fast, rush fast, but they totally can't fight. That's a problem.

4. Penals are great in early, but in late? You know, OKW for late have Obers, UK's tommies and US riflemans can be scaled with weapons or upgrades. What about USSR? 3 stock infantry units totaly useless in late and doctrinals are worse, than stock units of other factions. And I should say, that everything can be usefull, used properly. But M3 is pretty vunerable to all starting units of Axis. Ostheers have fausts, OKW have Spioneers with Sturmgewehrs. STGs somehow destroying M3 cars veery fast, specially from flank and back. So, M3 is quite useless.

5. Soviet doctrines are only source of usefull units for them. I call it "doctrinal addiction". You can see, that almost all soviet stock units are poor and weak, compared to their analogs in other factions - from infantry to tanks. And only with doctrines you can get units, which can be more or less effective. You want real infantry? Take doctrines! You want real tanks (T-34-85 instead of shitty tincan T-34-76)? Take doctrines? Want weapons for your mainline infantry? Take doctrines! And you know what? It would be even nice, if all other factions couldn't get that everything without doctrines at all! And some of them getting all those benefits at once, while chosing doctrines usually forcing you to refuse something like "Oh, I take doctrine with T-34-85 and IS-2, but I won't have storms or guards". Or "Oh, I want doctrine with infantry, but I won't get tanks". Is it normal at all? You have to play as criplled faction.

No offense mate, but if you don't like Soviets don't play em. In my point of view they are a very strong, flexible and reasonable well balanced faction. At least that's what I see in the replays and matches I play alongside and against them. Where's the sense making them jack of all trades? Or is this some kind of "I'm from Russia so they have to make my army great so I can win" crap? I seriously hope not!

Anyway as I said if you want to play some defensive games try playing Ost. You're literally forced to defend. Maybe that'll give you a new perspective about the Soviets in multiplayer!

lol sov bunker fixing maxim spam ? xD

No offense mate, but if you don't like Soviets don't play em. In my point of view they are a very strong, flexible and reasonable well balanced faction. At least that's what I see in the replays and matches I play alongside and against them. Where's the sense making them jack of all trades? Or is this some kind of "I'm from Russia so they have to make my army great so I can win" crap? I seriously hope not!

Anyway as I said if you want to play some defensive games try playing Ost. You're literally forced to defend. Maybe that'll give you a new perspective about the Soviets in multiplayer!

Well, whenever I play as axis or UK it's such restful. Don't need to do all that shity micro, less worry about useless infantry or tanks... Just like to go to eat in good restaraunt after 10 years lunching in McDonalds.

And I can't say that Im very "deffensive player". It just usually way easier playstyle for me, but, same Axis (both Ostheers and OKW) can not only in defesive game, but also in offensive and very effectiviely! But USSR can ONLY in offencive game, and for that Relic gave them worst units in all kinds - worst infantry, worst tanks... How it suppoused to work then?

Here should be 2 ways - or make USSR same "universal faction" as all others - deffensive and offencive, or let them be offencive only, but they should become overpowerd in their offencive things. They should have OP tanks, like UK's, they should have OP assault infantry and not in doctrines, but in stock! If they have no defenses, then they should totally dominate in offencive no?

You have forgot to mention the part where maxim will be nerfed.

And what would you nerf for maxim? I just don't know, because for me personally it is already pretty poor.

lol sov bunker fixing maxim spam ? xD

Somehow it happens, that MG-42 bunkers of Ostheer "fixing" their MG-42 spam. Let's remove those bukers and I swear - there will be so many MG-42s... Cos you anyway need anti-infantry defense in your game, and only MGs can provide it. Ostheers can build bunkers (or even spam them) instead of buying more MGs, USSR can't. They have to spam Maxims for to close frontline for enemy infantry.

in 1v1 and 2v2 out of 10 games there is 1 when ostheer builds a bunker... i get bunker for completly diffrent purposes so why should the ability to build bunkers stop me from gettin 4 maxiims so i can instasupress everything where ever i want ?

in 1v1 and 2v2 out of 10 games there is 1 when ostheer builds a bunker... i get bunker for completly diffrent purposes so why should the ability to build bunkers stop me from gettin 4 maxiims so i can instasupress everything where ever i want ?

Well, it wasn't my main goal to "heal" Maximspam problem. It suppoused to be kinda side effect, not sure it will work, but it may to. At least personally I won't spam maxims anymore, cos I will have another MG strucutre for to protect my points.

And making 4 maxims for instasupress everything? That's crazy, it means that you won't have infantry at all, cos it is already almost 1k MP! That bunch of maxims will die from very first Luchs tank... Or 222 cars with 221 flametrucks.

I just can say - maxim spam is bad thing for both USSR and for those, who fights against them. I guess both sides wanted to solve that, really.

What is I told you that its not the lack of defense structures being the reason why people spam maxims?

What is I told you that its not the lack of defense structures being the reason why people spam maxims?

Ok, maybe Im wrong about it, and maximspam won't be cured, agree.

But, point was not about maxims, but about faction design and performance in that design.

All other factions are more or less universal. They can both in deffensive and offensive game. Look at UK - top defenses, nice infantry, badass tanks. Everything wihtout doctrines, even artillery (no matter that it is garbage). They are 100% universal faction! OKW was pretty same before with TOP tanks in game and dominating infantry, like Ubers. Even poor USF can play in deffensive and offencive. With problems but still.

USSR can ONLY in offencive gameplay and they are somehow not the best in that role, while they should be because... they lost entire gamestyle, so it should be compensated with more powerfull offencive. But it is not more powerfull, in some part's it is worst!

So, let USSR be same universal faction as all others. USSR right now is kinda "white crow" in all factions line.

Maybe you can give me some tips then? Because I find Ost to be one of the most if not the most micro intensive faction of all. Imho Soviets are a bit more forgiving because 6 man squads and weapon crews. Usually if I'm lazy with micro for one second my Grens and Mgs are dying left and right. But as I said maybe it's my fault.

I really don't understand why you post so much threads about Soviets being underpowered and full of design flaws! I mean seriously, they perform well and have tons of great tools for all situations.

If you're doing so good with axis and Brits why not stick with them because you don't seem to like how Soviets work.

Well, it wasn't my main goal to "heal" Maximspam problem. It suppoused to be kinda side effect, not sure it will work, but it may to. At least personally I won't spam maxims anymore, cos I will have another MG strucutre for to protect my points.

And making 4 maxims for instasupress everything? That's crazy, it means that you won't have infantry at all, cos it is already almost 1k MP! That bunch of maxims will die from very first Luchs tank... Or 222 cars with 221 flametrucks.

I just can say - maxim spam is bad thing for both USSR and for those, who fights against them. I guess both sides wanted to solve that, really.

lol have you never played with a sweet maxim spam strat ? 4 mgs an at maybe 1 con or double ce and nothing will hurt you - not to forget fast t70 or su76 XD