Idea for Penals

A semi automatic rifle. Can fire shots 1 by 1 without having to maunal load it, in game G43, SVT, M1, M1 carbine are Carbines. I real life that usually have sorter range than bolt action rifle because part of the energy is lost in moving the part and in propellant gases escaping during reload.

In contrast Bolt action rifles have be reload manually, in game K98, Mosin, Enfield are bolts action weapons.

Carbines refer to weapons with shorter barrels than rifles, semi auto or bolt action has nothing to do with it. The kar98k is in fact a carbine (you can tell from the name, karabiner 98 kurz). The semi automatic m1 garand is a rifle. k98k barrel length = 490mm, m1 garand 610mm. The svt-40 has a barrel length of 625mm and is thus a semi automatic rifle.

A semi automatic rifle. Can fire shots 1 by 1 without having to maunal load it, in game G43, SVT, M1, M1 carbine are Carbines. I real life that usually have sorter range than bolt action rifle because part of the energy is lost in moving the part and in propellant gases escaping during reload.

In contrast Bolt action rifles have be reload manually, in game K98, Mosin, Enfield are bolts action weapons.

False.

A carbine is a shortened rifle usually intended Intended for cavalry or engineers who would be hindered by a full size rifle.

The G43, SVT, and M1 are full size semi auto battle rifles. The SVT with a scope is good for 1km accurate shots, hardly short range.

The only rifle you listed which is a carbine is well the M1 carbine.


Meh 2 slow.

snip

Sorry

Carbines refer to weapons with shorter barrels than rifles, ..

True in real life and I stand corrected but this is actually the separation Relic has made...
Bolts action and Carbine (semi automatic)

From patch notes:
G43 now uses the carbine rifle weapon profile
SVT now uses the carbine rifle weapon profile

USF where not introduced then...

Relic also separated the weapon in ballistic and explosives which in real life is not correct and should be direct and indirect fire weapons...

Thanks for pointing it out, I edited original response...

True in real life and I stand corrected but this is actually the separation Relic has made...
Bolts action and Carbine (semi automatic)

From patch notes:
G43 now uses the carbine rifle weapon profile
SVT now uses the carbine rifle weapon profile

USF where not introduced then...

Relic also separated the weapon in ballistic and explosives which in real life is not correct and should be direct and indirect fire weapons...

Yeah, they're butchering the definitions..

I'm not going to include myself in the penal discussion too much (ESL starting soon) but if there's no design changes they need the extra survivability with vet, that someone posted somewhere, to be usable at all. Will still be a heavily situational unit depending on maps (which sucks for stock units), forcing you to go for doctrines with guards as well as having the role overlaps with cons and engies. A complete design overhaul would be preferable but I don't really see stuff like that happening with the forgotten vanilla factions .

I think it is explain in detail and better on the other thread....
Currently conscript are not cheap and have to much utility (that should be split between Penals and Conscripts)...thematically Penals fit the role of "cannon fodder" better.

They could even stay at T1 if their the price was lowered enough and had enough utility...For instance if they AT grenade (not teck cost) and merge was moved to Penals that costed around 200 manpower (with a new stats) from conscripts that might work giving people an extra reason to get T1

how does conscript have too much utility? Their main abilities are grenade(molly), at nade, sprint, and merge. That's hardly "too much utility". Volks, rifle, and grenadier all have access to both grenades and anti-tank weapon, and rifles have smoke in lieu of sprint. The only ability that's unique to conscript is the merge ability, and that's very situation.

Splitting the all important grenades and anti-tank grenade onto two separate units on two separate building is also a huge nerf to the soviet.

how does conscript have too much utility?...
Splitting the all important grenades and anti-tank grenade onto two separate units on two separate building is also a huge nerf to the soviet...

You focusing on the tree and losing the forest.
I can list you all the abilities and doctrinal abilities conscripts get and only riflemen would come near the number of things available to them. (and that because of the USF design)
The bottom line is the have too much utility compared to Penals so Penal do not look cost efficient by comparison.

If you read more carefully you will see that the suggestion is no tech cost for AT grenades, so imo soviet actually get buffed not nerfed...

AT grenades is 125 25

T1 is 160 10

the 15 Fuel less to have access to AT grenades is is more important than 35 Manpower...add the access to other units and the CP gain and it will feel more like a buff than an nerf.

Once more those are details, pls lets try focus on the direction and not the details.

You focusing on the tree and losing the forest.
I can list you all the abilities and doctrinal abilities conscripts get and only riflemen would come near the number of things available to them. (and that because of the USF design)
The bottom line is the have too much utility compared to Penals so Penal do not look cost efficient by comparison.

If you read more carefully you will see that the suggestion is no tech cost for AT grenades, so imo soviet actually get buffed not nerfed...

AT grenades is 125 25

T1 is 160 10

the 15 Fuel less to have access to AT grenades is is more important than 35 Manpower...add the access to other units and the CP gain and it will feel more like a buff than an nerf.

Once more those are details, pls lets try focus on the direction and not the details.

conscript: merge, molly, at nade, sprint, trip mine, sandbag(6). (doc: ) ppsh, hit the dirt, PTRS, Ant-tank barrage, anti-tank mine, repair, FHQ, motherland(8). total: 14

grenadier: riflenade, faust, medical kit, lmg, bunker(5). (doc: ) g43, cloak, interrogation, hulldown, stun nade, sprint, tactical movement, counterattack tactic (8). 13 ability

the conscript have one more ability than the grenadier, two if you consider tactical movement and sprint on the grenadier to be the same abilities. In addition, the grenadier's non-doctrinal abilities are significantly better than what the conscript get as well. Riflenade, lmg42, and faust is an incredible combination.

The conscript might have more varied abilities from doctrine, but they are still doctrinal. The grenadier's superior abilities mean they are not dependent on having the right doctrine.

there's also a difference between paying an upgrade to grant an abilities to your infantry versus needing to buy another infantry for the abilities.

it's not just 160 mp 10 fuel, it's 160 mp 10 fuel + the cost of the unit itself.

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The conscript might have more varied abilities from doctrine, but they are still doctrinal. The grenadier's superior abilities mean they are not dependent on having the right doctrine.

there's also a difference between paying an upgrade to grant an abilities to your infantry versus needing to buy another infantry for the abilities.

it's not just 160 mp 10 fuel, it's 160 mp 10 fuel + the cost of the unit itself.

Again tree forest. Conscript's utility compared to other mainline infantry is not that important but compared to Penals is. The question remains why someone would chose Penals over conscript or other "elite" call in units? (in addition allot of the abilities you have mentioned are not limited to Concs/Grens but to other infantries also,as I explain thou there is very little point in continue this)

In the current state one can have 5 conscripts with at grenades for:

5*240+125= 1.325 MP +25 FU

In the proposed state:

One could have :

2*240+3*200+160= 1.240 MP+ 10 FU and the benefits of having saved fuel to tech to t3 faster, gain CP from the building and access to other T1 units if needed...

Again tree forest. Conscript's utility compared to other mainline infantry is not that important but compared to Penals is. The question remains why someone would chose Penals over conscript or other "elite" call in units? (in addition allot of the abilities you have mentioned are not limited to Concs/Grens but to other infantries also,as I explain thou there is very little point in continue this)

In the current state one can have 5 conscripts with at grenades for:

5*240+125= 1.325 MP +25 FU

In the proposed state:

One could have :

2*240+3*200+160= 1.240 MP+ 10 FU and the benefits of having saved fuel to tech to t3 faster, gain CP from the building and access to other T1 units if needed...

The reason Penal is ignored is because it's a crap unit, not because the conscript is too useful.

the t2 give you maxim, zis, and mortar, all good unit that scale into the late game. By comparison the penal is a weak unit that have crap scaling, and the sniper alone is not enough to make t1 attractive.

ultimately the conscript and penal have to fight against the axis grenadiers, not each other. Trying to balance the conscript exclusively against the penal is just going to end up with two broken units. This sounds like some kind of nightmarish political infighting between the conscripts and the penals, ultimately ending with the both of them crippled against the axis grenadier.

This sounds like some kind of nightmarish political infighting between the conscripts and the penals, ultimately ending with the both of them crippled against the axis grenadier.

"Tovarische kapitan, why are my men armed only with Mosins while your scum of the Soviet Union get semiautomatic rifles and flamethrowers?"

"Iunno"

"I will not stand for this disrespect!"

.. By comparison the penal is a weak unit that have crap scaling, and the sniper alone is not enough to make t1 attractive.
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Penal Battalion
Unlocks the 'Trip Wire Flares' ability
Unlocks the 'Hoorah' ability, +30% accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
+30% accuracy, -23% received accuracy

By comparison with other mainline infantry Penal scaling is anything but crap...notice the 2 vet abilities and 1.3*1.3 = 1.69 accuracy bonus having and increment in DPS few other can much (plus 0,80 cooldown). It is not scaling the luck but utility...

Plus wrong type of veterancy bonus since it offer little to their trademark flamer upgrade...

They are not weak since they have 6*80*1=480 EHP which more than Cons and Riflemen.

Their DPS is more than riflemen up around 15 without the flamer and is probably more than riflemen up to 20 with flamer.

Trying to balance the conscript exclusively against the penal is just going to end up with two broken units. This sounds like some kind of nightmarish political infighting between the conscripts and the penals, ultimately ending with the both of them crippled against the axis grenadier.

Well it things are simple imo either their need to be room for both units to be built or one of them will be used over the other...In addition with plethora of other call in units finding another role for them, that does not overlap is rather difficult...

Unless you go for something Soviet needs, do not have and fits them thematically. Cheap cannon fodder units...

Penal Battalion
Unlocks the 'Trip Wire Flares' ability
Unlocks the 'Hoorah' ability, +30% accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
+30% accuracy, -23% received accuracy

By comparison with other mainline infantry Penal scaling is anything but crap...notice the 2 vet abilities and 1.3*1.3 = 1.69 accuracy bonus having and increment in DPS few other can much (plus 0,80 cooldown). It is not scaling the luck but utility...

Thank you, but I'd rather have 40% of 8 then 69% of 4 as a bonus.
2 vet abilities mean nothing if you need one to even have a shadow of functioning squad and another one is LITERALLY ON ANY OTHER INFANTRY UNIT IN THE FACTION.
So it boils down to a single actual vet ability, which is just a basic skill of another infantry.
Now, look at JLI for example, how many abilities do they have? And guess what, its still a powerful squad in combat. Number of abilities have nothing to do with units combat potential.

Its no scaling at all if the base stats are as full of shit as the post I'm quoting right now.

Stop spitting "utility this, utility that" bullshit, because literally EVERY SINGLE OKW unit is packed with utility while excelling at using actual rifles too.

Plus wrong type of veterancy bonus since it offer little to their trademark flamer upgrade...

Flamers use accuracy for months now, welcome to 2015, keep up and we'll meet in 2016 one day, hopefully by 2018. Flamer is hardly a trademark, because you know, combat engies...

They are not weak since they have 6*80*1=480 EHP which more than Cons and Riflemen.

Cool, except rifles don't have 6 men, have access to powerful weapon upgrades and have superior vet and comparing anything to cons, saying its not weak is beyond retarded argument.

Thats like saying WC51 is super strong unit if you compare it to sandbags.

Their DPS is more than riflemen up around 15 without the flamer and is probably more than riflemen up to 20 with flamer.

Hardly a difference at short range, 50% worse at long range, flamer is in no way better then 2x bar for anything but garrison clear, but penals already have a tool for that.

Well it things are simple imo either their need to be room for both units to be built or one of them will be used over the other...In addition with plethora of other call in units finding another role for them, that does not overlap is rather difficult...

Unless you go for something Soviet needs, do not have and fits them thematically. Cheap cannon fodder units...

Yes.. things are really simple... you have no slightest clue on what you're talking about and are full of it as usual.

And no, finding a role for them is NOT difficult at all.
Soviets don't have stock long range infantry. Give penals same weapon profile as rifles got. There, penals have completely unique role in contrast to ANY other soviet squad, being a squad that is effective at all ranges, but doesn't excel anywhere.

Also, 270mp is anything but cheap or cannon fodder. You've confused them with Osttruppen, who still have over 100% more long range dps for much lower price.

Its no scaling at all if the base stats are as full of shit as the post I'm quoting right now.

Scaling by definition means how much the improve by veterancy and Penal scale equally good or better than most infantries with 3 vet levels...try finding more DPs increase in other infantry...and pls stop being vulgar...

Flamers use accuracy for months now, welcome to 2015, keep up and we'll meet in 2016 one day, hopefully by 2018. Flamer is hardly a trademark, because you know, combat engies...

And guess what the accuracy of roks flamer is at all ranges? 100% try to understand game mechanics better before posting about them. But can be expected from someone who though hand held flamer were nerfed the last time they where patched, while it truth they where buff so much they had to be moved away from riflemen....
Flamer are their trade mark because it is the ONLY upgrade available to them...

Cool, except rifles don't have 6 men,...

And thus they have less effective HP and are "weaker" than Penals, the reference firespark made (and I responed to) "weak" was to their survivability and not their overall performance/balance, but then again you will twist anything and everything in order to insult others.

Hardly a difference at short range, 50% worse at long range, flamer is in no way better then 2x bar for anything but garrison clear, but penals already have a tool for that.

2 bars are 120 munition, have a tech cost and are still worse against heavy cover.
Not sure what your definition of "Hardly a difference" is, but a Penal squad has on average around 15% more DPS than riflemen in short ranges (up to 10) and 15% in my books is significant...

Yes.. things are really simple... you have no slightest clue on what you're talking about and are full of it as usual.

I have to agree with this sentence with minor change, just replace "you" with katitof...

And no, finding a role for them is NOT difficult at all.
Soviets don't have stock long range infantry. Give penals same weapon profile as rifles got.

Just to demonstrate how out of game balance that suggestions is, if the SVT becomes the same as M1 garands then a Penal squad will cost less than riflemen, have around 20% more EFP, around 20% more DPS at vet 0 going up to around +60% more DPS at vet 3...In other word they will be broken.

Just to demonstrate how out of game balance that suggestions is, if the SVT becomes tha same as M1 garands then a Penal squad will cost less than riflemen, have around 20% more EFP, around 20% more DPS at vet 0 up to around +60% more DPS at vet 3...

They already do this at close range and suck.

If an SVT = M1, squad DPS @ long range for the Penals is abit under a rifle squad with 2xBar. Ofc if the Penals have a flamethrower then this is alot lower & rifles have an extra -20% RA.

While that seems high Penals are a pure dps unit with next to no utility.... you've got to bring along Conscripts for the ride which will dilute DPS down alot.

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If an SVT = M1, squad DPS @ long range for the Penals is abit under a rifle squad with 2xBar. Ofc if the Penals have a flamethrower then this is alot lower & rifles have an extra -20% RA.

While that seems high Penals are a pure dps unit with next to no utility.... you've got to bring along Conscripts for the ride which will dilute DPS down alot.

Exactly my points.
1) A units that cost 270 manpower should not have more EHP and about the DPS of 280 units with 120 MU upgrade which comes in a faction designed around riflemen and light vehicles...(and they would probably outgun riflemen 2xbar by vet 3! and the flamer would become a rather pointless upgrade)

2) Again exactly my point. Penals luck utility more than they luck DPS...

Exactly my points.
1) A units that cost 270 manpower should not have more EHP and about the DPS of 280 units with 120 MU upgrade which comes in a faction designed around riflemen and light vehicles...

2) Again exactly my point. Penals luck utility more than they luck DPS...

Nah, the way soviets are designed Cons + Penals = Rifles = Grens = Tommies

The whole of Sov T0/T1 lacks dps horribly in its current state.

Where does utility come from? - Cons - their not great, take any away and their pointless.
Where does dps come from? - kindof penals but they suck so hard better go straight for Guards / Shocks.

What utility is there to add to Penals?
- Long range dps (Guards)
- Short range (PPsh Cons/Shocks)
- Soft AT (Guards/PTRS Cons)
- LMG (Guards)

The only role that isn't already taken is a versatile mid range dps dealer Pwiffles.

Sov pay 460/50 for con upgrades + t1 any they don't even get scaling mainline infantry looooooool, the faction design is poor in that theres not really any infantry muni sinks beyond abilities, but hey ho without completely reworking the unit Pwiffles are the best fix.

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The only role that isn't already taken is a versatile mid range dps dealer Pwiffles.
...

Actually the role of cheap cannon fodder units like Ostruppen and Royal engineers is open...

In addition both Conscripts and Penals have decent DPS in the mid range...

Finally try to explain that to katitof who said: "Long range DPS from 4 to 8.
Done, unit fixed."...(and good luck with that)

Actually the role of cheap cannon fodder units like Ostruppen and Royal engineers is open...

In addition both Conscripts and Penals have decent DPS in the mid range...

Finally try to explain that to katitof who suggested doubling their far DPS...(and good luck with that)

Cannon fodder isn't a role, Ostruppen are cost effective at long range outshotting tommies if both are in cover that sounds pretty useful, they also have a nice snare. Royal engineers are well engineers, they get weapon upgrades unlike Cons/Penals and get some insane bonus' with Anvil and vet3.

Con squads mid range dps is worse then those mid range monsters Grens, as PG's have loads more mid range dps then Penals.

I'm curious what unique utility or role you would add to Penals without overshadowing something else?

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Con squads mid range dps is worse then those mid range monsters Grens, as PG's have loads more mid range dps then Penals.
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I'm curious what unique utility or role you would add to Penals without overshadowing something else?

As you can see the DPS ration grens to conscripts drop significantly by more than 60% when moving from far to mid. Grens are designed to fight far better then at mid...

1.12% 1.16% 1.16% 1.15% 1.15% 1.14% 1.42% 1.78%

As explain here and in an other thread they could get some things like merge, ourah, molotovs, AT grenades, rapid conscription...generally abilities that would reduce their penalties while closing moving out of cover...