Idea for Penals

As you can see the DPS ration grens to conscripts drop significantly by more than 60% when moving from far to mid. Grens are designed to fight far better then at mid...

1.12% 1.16% 1.16% 1.15% 1.15% 1.14% 1.42% 1.78%

As explain here and in an other thread they could get some things like merge, ourah, molotovs, AT grenades, rapid conscription...generally abilities that would reduce their penalties while closing moving out of cover...

Yeap ...
So the long range grens still outdamage cons at mid range (as opposed to hammer them at long range) without their LMG......

If you give new Penals ourah, molotovs, at grenades etc to you take them from Cons or clone the units?

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So the long range grens still outdamage cons at mid range (as opposed to hammer them at long range) without their LMG......

If you give new Penals ourah, molotovs, at grenades etc to you take them from Cons or clone the units?

Cons also have more EFH. They are designed to win mid/close range lose long range...

No the idea is that some of utility of cons goes to Penals and then Cons become better and more expensive if needed...

Cons also have more EFH. They are designed to win mid/close range lose long range...

No the idea is that some of utility of cons goes to Penals and then Cons become better and more expensive if needed...

So your saying take the utility from cons to give to penals, then reduce penal cost.

Then buff Con cost/damage to make it more of a damage dealer, which would give it a rifle type profile.

Maybe move cons to t1 & penals to t0.

And Katitof is an idiot for just suggesting a buff to penals long range. Oooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

So your saying take the utility from cons to give to penals, then reduce penal cost.

Then buff Con cost/damage to make it more of a damage dealer, which would give it a rifle type profile.

Maybe move cons to t1 & penals to t0.

And Katitof is an idiot for just suggesting a buff to penals long range. Oooooookkkkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

I did not say that Katitof is an idiot...and I have explain that doubling their long range DPs does not go well with their flamer upgrade which has a range of 20...

Yes the idea is to have a cheaper infantry which is cheaper to reinforce...and thematically that role fits better the Penals than it does the conscripts...

Yes the idea is to split the utility of the conscript so that Soviet have room to use both units..

Yes the idea could be that since conscripts would still use bolt action rifles some of their DPS could move from mid to far, since the units that would close the distance would be the Penals and not the conscripts.

If you want to actually contribute to this thread pls take the time to read what already posted...It is not very helpful if we have to repeat the same thing over and over...

Yes the idea is to have a cheaper infantry which is cheaper to reinforce...and thematically that role fits better the Penals than it does the conscripts...

They are Penal battalions, not penal companies. They are not untrained soldiers, they are officers.

Yes the idea could be that since conscripts would still use bolt action rifles some of their DPS could move from mid to far, since the units that would close the distance would be the Penals and not the conscripts.

AND you are messing the whole early game ecosystem when the only real problem is Penals, and MAYBE late late game conscripts.

Nah, the way soviets are designed Cons + Penals = Rifles = Grens = Tommies

The whole of Sov T0/T1 lacks dps horribly in its current state.

Where does utility come from? - Cons - their not great, take any away and their pointless.
Where does dps come from? - kindof penals but they suck so hard better go straight for Guards / Shocks.

What utility is there to add to Penals?
- Long range dps (Guards)
- Short range (PPsh Cons/Shocks)
- Soft AT (Guards/PTRS Cons)
- LMG (Guards)

The only role that isn't already taken is a versatile mid range dps dealer Pwiffles.

Sov pay 460/50 for con upgrades + t1 any they don't even get scaling mainline infantry looooooool, the faction design is poor in that theres not really any infantry muni sinks beyond abilities, but hey ho without completely reworking the unit Pwiffles are the best fix.

Give them an option for an AVT package that gives them...AVTS exclusive to the flamer. Assault rifle profile, buff to close range-mid range. Give them fire superiority with the package

Also would be neat if penals came with wire cutters (not sweepers, just wire cutters... Seems like something a penal bat would be told to do..)

They are Penal battalions, not penal companies. They are not untrained soldiers, they are officers.

AND you are messing the whole early game ecosystem when the only real problem is Penals, and MAYBE late late game conscripts.

Yes I am because both units have problems.

Soviet are supposed to have a large size army but their mainline infantry cost about the same as axis mainline infantry so there is little difference.

Conscripts although mainline infantry have to be used aggressively to move to mid range to be effective and have to rely on abilities and commander abilities.

If one buff them in their current state the "conscript" blob will be back.

On the other hand if take away their "ourah" ability (in my opinion a sprint ability should not be available to mainline by stock in vet 0)and their anti-garrison molotov (in my opinion anti-garrison weapons should not be available to mainline infantry by stock) they could be buffed to fight a bit better far and scale better. Then can then be established as an infantry meant to fight far to mid in cover.

That opens room for the more aggressive cheap Pennal battalion that take on the task of charging the enemy and then retreating...

If Ostheer are designed to use support weapons in other word a mixture of units, and Soviet designed to use combined infantry (with long list of call in infantry) the same should extend to stock infantry.

For those who propose various weapon upgrades for Penals I have to point out giving weapons that are available to call in units to Penal will is difficult to work since if they overlap there will be little room for both units.

Finally one of the current issues of Penals is veterancy. They need a new vet ability and in the current state they need new vet bonuses since those they currently get would be too got in another unit but not useful on Penals...

I did not say that Katitof is an idiot...and I have explain that doubling their long range DPs does not go well with their flamer upgrade which has a range of 20...

that's not how flamethrower works. They might have a range limit of 20 meters, but their dps is constant within that 20 meters. Getting closer is not going to make your flamethrower perform better.

This mean that a flamethrower works well with weapon that have decent dps around 20 meters, mid-long range. Also remember that range is calculated individually for each model. Just because the flamethrower is within 20 meters of the enemy, it doesn't mean the rest of the squads are.

A mid-long range weapon work well with flamethrower because it allow the squad the option of not get within touching distance. They can sit at around 20 meters and let the flamethrower and mid-long fire take care of the enemy.

Think of the volks' incendiary nade, it has a 20 meter throw radius. The long range volks work well with the 20 meters incendiary nade because it allow the volks to deny the enemy's cover without getting uncomfortably close. Now just think of the flamethrower as a incendiary nade that the volks can throw passive.


having a flamethrower doesn't mean the unit need a smg to be effective, they are far more flexible than what player give them credit for. Flamethrower might be traditionally given to close range troops like sturmpio or pio, but that doesn't mean flamethrower need to be at 20 meters to be effective.

It only seems that way for pioneer because they are close range troops to begin with. There's also the fact that flamethrower can't fire on the move, clashing with the smg's biggest strength.


also considering that the penal lack the durability of stuff like shocks or even commandos, getting into smg range is a pretty risk situation. Better to stay at 20 meter and roast the enemy from a far.

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This mean that a flamethrower works well with weapon that have decent dps around 20 meters, mid-long range. Also remember that range is calculated individually for each model. Just because the flamethrower is within 20 meters of the enemy, it doesn't mean the rest of the squads are.
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Flamethrower might be traditionally given to close range troops like sturmpio or pio, but that doesn't mean flamethrower need to be at 20 meters to be effective.
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Exactly my points:
Doubling far DPs will benefits Penals with flamer little because their optimum range is 20 and bellow and since 15 is close to 35 the benefits at those range will be minimal...

so the difference in range 20 is 14%...

In addition the over-perfroming DPS bonus with veterancy will make upgrading Penal with flamer a questionable upgrade since they will lose 20% of their far DPS which will be considerable at vet 3...

Further more with double accuracy far the will have more accuracy far then mid...(so the proposed numbers are off)

If Pennals are to receive a DPs buff that should be more a at mid range (around 15-20)and less at far...

I also agree that flamer and SMG combination is misconception flamer are best use at range 20 since closing will waste you time and increase the enemy DPS. As proved with riflemen flamers semi-automatic (carbine profile) weapons work better with flamer...

The exception here being conscript's PPsh who do not actually follow the typical smgs profile and are better in over shocks PPsh. To rectify this inconsistency it would a better solution for relic to replace the conscripts PPsh upgrade with an SVT upgrade being better at mid and at around mosin level far and establish upgraded conscripts as good mid to far range DPS infantry or give them SVT and PPsh for mid to close performance.

Finally sturm pios use assault rifle profile which is mid to close (not close)and thus flamers work well on them.

As I repeatedly posted if Penal stay in the current role and state what they need is a different vet 1 ability, different vet bonuses maybe a medium buff (15%-20%) at mid range although some defensive bonus might suit them better.

Exactly my points:
Doubling far DPs will benefits Penals with flamer little because their optimum range is 20 and bellow and since 15 is close to 35 the benefits at those range will be minimal...

that's not how range work.

range boundary for svt:

short range = 6
mid range = 18
far range = 35.

the weapons have stats set at predetermined distance, with behavior in between those boundary calculated by a linear line between the two point.

this mean that if you want to improve the svt's dps at around 20 meter, you improve its far and mid range. Improving the weapon's short range dps will not improve the svt's 20 meter performance because the 20 meter distance fall in between svt's far(35) and mid (18) range.

The purpose of having a flamethrower on a unit with good long-mid range dps is allowing the unit to use its flamethrower without needing to get within kissing distance. The penal is not a unit you want to use too aggressively. They lack the durability of dedicated smg troops like the commandos or shocks.

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mid range = 18
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According to the file extracted from the editor mid range for penal_troops_svt_rifle_mp is set at 16.

17.5 for penal_troops_svt_rifle which is not used in multiplier games...

And exactly my point once more. Penal need better accuracy mid not far. If one gives 200% more accuracy far the benefit at range 20 would be only around 14% while the DPS total weapons area profile would be increased dramatically. On the other hand if one increase mid range accuracy by 15%-20% the weapon would benefit at range 20 about the same, without dramatically increase the performance.

Or one could move that mid distance at 20 for similar results...

Received accuracy becomes rather irrelevant at point blank and that is why shocks perform so good because the relay on their armor and not their Rec. acc. . On the other hand mid to far Rec. acc. works better...

And exactly my point once more. Penal need better accuracy mid not far. If one gives 200% more accuracy far the benefit at range 20 would be only around 14% while the DPS total weapons area profile would be increased dramatically. On the other hand if one increase mid range accuracy by 15%-20% the weapon would benefit at range 20 about the same, without dramatically increase the performance.

A 20% buff gives Penals a whole 5% more dps at 20 then cons....

Not sure why you want to make Penals work only @ 20? It creates a highly specialised unit out of what should be mailine infantry. Close range units can still close the distance, no use at all at range, its just bad design.

The weapon profile as it stands is plain bad, 200% at range sounds like alot but it just brings them inline with rifles.

Alternatively you could increase the short range dps, but that wouldn't make the most of the flamer and steps on ppsh cons/shock toes.

A 20% buff gives Penals a whole 5% more dps at 20 then cons....
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Some times I wonder if you bother to read what is already said in this thread, let me break this down one last time, after that I will just refer you back to what is already written.

1) 20 is the max range for a flamer increasing the effective range beyond that range makes the flamer upgrade questionable....

2) It even has more DPS than a riflemen squad at some ranges...

106%(0) 123%(5) 109%(10) 84%(15) 74%(20) 67%(25) 62%(30) 56%(35)
A 20% increase in mid DPS will bring flamer Penals close to DPS of flamer riflemen while being cheaper and tougher so it seems about right, any more DPS will probably prove problematic.

3) A double range at range 35 (far) will bring each SVT to be 12% accurate than M1 bringing the total DPS of the squad around 1,12%*1,20%= 134% more than riflemen and by vet 3 around 1,34*1,3= 174% more DPS than vet 3 riflemen while reaming cheaper, with more EHP and with less reinforcement cost. In other words broken...

4) Flamers are best used at range 20 because they have a flat DPS curve not sort...

5) Doubling the far DPs would make the weapon have a flat weapon profile which as Relic has pointed when introduced weapon profiles make small arms fire fights worse...

In addition, as I have explained many times, I personally prefer other ways of making Penals more attractive and although the SVT weapon profile might need some tweaking (more DPS mid far, less close) I would rather see a Penals become tougher than deadlier...


PLS try to read what is already written because at this point I am simply repeating the same things over and over again.

Some times I wonder if you bother to read what is already said in this thread, let me break this down one last time, after that I will just refer you back to what is already written.

1) 20 is the max range for a flamer increasing the effective range beyond that range makes the flamer upgrade questionable....

UTILITY ... a Penal squad with a flamer has no use outside 20. It must run to 20 and stay at 20. A Penal that can do reasonable dps at range give you the option of closing or stay remaining in heavy cover. No long range dps = no option = less utility.

Flamers drop long range dps - its a choice how is a choice bad? Do I go for a flamer for close range damage, do I keep the rifle for long range. F/e PG's the upgrade doesn't have to be a mindless click - thats boring as hell and a bad design.

2) It even has more DPS than a riflemen squad at some ranges...

106%(0) 123%(5) 109%(10) 84%(15) 74%(20) 67%(25) 62%(30) 56%(35)
A 20% increase in mid DPS will bring flamer Penals close to DPS of flamer riflemen while being cheaper and tougher so it seems about right, any more DPS will probably prove problematic.

Close to a standard rifle ..... at some ranges ..... a T1 dps dealer hardly outdamages a generalist with boat loads of options, just lol, put in weapon upgrades and frankly... why bother with a penal?

3) A double range at range 35 (far) will bring each SVT to be 12% accurate than M1 bringing the total DPS of the squad around 1,12%*1,20%= 134% more than riflemen and by vet 3 around 1,34*1,3= 174% more DPS than vet 3 riflemen while reaming cheaper, with more EHP and with less reinforcement cost. In other words broken...

The number quoted was 8, abit below rifles and a 75% increase. Your ignoring the RA bonus rifles get that makes the ehp the same. Your ignoring the weapon upgrades rifles get, either AT or AI, your assuming that smoke + nade + at nade = satchel charge, just LOOOOOOOOL

4) Flamers are best used at range 20 because they have a flat DPS curve not sort...

That doesn't mean the SVT has to follow the same profile......

In addition, as I have explained many times, I personally prefer other ways of making Penals more attractive and although the SVT weapon profile might need some tweaking (more DPS mid far, less close) I would rather see a Penals become tougher than deadlier...

Big reworks are out of the picture because you know lelic. Concept wise I can see Penals working as a doc Soviet close range Ost, I've modded Penals into Strelki with DP & PTRS upgrades and it works great as another guy on the forum did with Guards. But keeping the current minefield of naff Soviet faction design how can you improve Penals with a minor change without clashing roles with another unit?.... not many options.

PLS try to read what is already written because at this point I am simply repeating the same things over and over again.

Its because you just repeat the same stuff without any kind of justification. Give Penals more mid damage..... mmm great whats the point of that? what does it actually do in game.

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Flamers drop long range dps - its a choice how is a choice bad? Do I go for a flamer for close range damage, do I keep the rifle for long range.
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In that case Penal should start with 6 bolt action Mosin weapons suitable for long range fights (probably between conscripts and guard level) and their upgrade should give them 5 SVT +1 flamer... suitable for mid fighting...vet abilities and vet bonuses should also be look at in this case.

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Close to a standard rifle ..... at some ranges ..... a T1 dps dealer hardly outdamages a generalist with boat loads of options, just lol, put in weapon upgrades and frankly... why bother with a penal?
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+20 to +174 more DPS is close its far better (especially at vet 3) a Pennal squad would probably be better than riflemen with 2Xbars.

In other words a 270 unit (160MP 10FU cost ) would be probably better than than 280+120 MU (150 15Fu tech) cost unit.
A flamer Pennal would probably be better than Flamer bar Riflemen...and you don't see a problem with that?...Do you have any idea why Relic moved flamer for riflemen to R.E.?

The number quoted was 8, abit below rifles and a 75% increase.

Read again things suggested by katitof:

Long range DPS from 4 to 8.

which mean double their DPS. the number 4 as far DPS for Penals is (as usual for Katitof) inaccurate but what he is suggesting is Doubling their current numbers...

Your ignoring the RA bonus rifles get that makes the ehp the same.

Riflmen 5*80/0.97= 412
Penal 6*80*1= 480 16% more EHP...
VET 3
Riflmen 5*80/(0.97*0.77*0.80)= 669 7% more EHP
Penal 6*80*/0.77= 623
Happy now?

Your ignoring the weapon upgrades rifles get

And you are ignoring faction design. The whole USF faction strong point is riflemen and light vehicles.

4) Flamers are best used at range 20 because they have a flat DPS
That doesn't mean the SVT has to follow the same profile......

Exactly my point, weapon profiles were introduced to change the flat weapon profiles and by doubling the far DPS one creates a flat weapon profile...which as Relic pointed out is bad in small arm fire fights...

But keeping the current minefield of naff Soviet faction design how can you improve Penals with a minor change without clashing roles with another unit?.... not many options.

Starting by giving them different vet ability different vet bonuses some of the conscripts utility and adjusting their SVT profile having more mid far DPS but less close for start or give them completely different weapons and upgrades...

Its because you just repeat the same stuff without any kind of justification. Give Penals more mid damage..... mmm great whats the point of that? what does it actually do in game.

Makes them better at their optimal range(20), but that would help very in becoming more useful without a new vet 1 ability, new veterancy bonuses and/or a new role...

Long range DPS from 4 to 8.
Done, unit fixed.
Nothing more is needed, no big changes, no new abilities, no vet changes.
Just this simple change gives them new utility without impacting their intended role of mid range squad.
Basically makes them Rifles who don't scale as well, but work in contrast of soviet army.

But I am not the one that claimed that increasing their DPS would solve the problem of Penals

Discussion stays on topic or this gets locked as well. (invised some posts)
If you have nothing to contribute then dont.