New Commander: Terror Doctrine

Added the veterancy XP requirements for Knight's Cross Holders:

Vet 1 Requirement: 850 XP
Vet 2 Requirement: 1700 XP
Vet 3 Requirement: 2550 XP

The following threads have been sent to Relic's balance team for further testing/checking:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/48977/new-commander-terror-doctrine
https://www.coh2.org/topic/48788/ostheer-railway-artillery

Thank you all for your feedback which helped me improve all of these to a better state!
~Kar

I used the Panzer Grenadiers as a base for when I was adding stats, then I morphed it so that it would fit with the whole KCH concept. It grinds infantry up close, and has good vet levels. Once one model dies, it loses a lot more DPS than any other squad, so it needs to be managed properly in order for it to be used effectively. I tried not to copy & paste too much by not using stats from the coh1 version, but instead by trial and error. The fewer roles are to make it a more specialized unit, while giving it a clear, and obvious counter.

Question remains is "why use KCH at all?". Panzergrenadiers might not have the same AI firepower but they can use panzerschrecks (whereas KCHs don't have any AT weapons, at least Fallschirmjaegers have Panzerfaust). If anything, KCH having faust is most logical given their high cost, small squad size, inability to pick up weapons and the risk-reward of a sturdy AI unit running to up tanks for a potential critical. Without it though you shoehorn them into the Ostheer equivalent of Obersoldaten- useful if you ever float on manpower.
You've clearly done your homework on the stats, but what about the concept and purpose of the unit? High cost and even higher CP to unlock makes them a very premium unit that by the time they are out, at the same time render all AI squads obsolete yet pointless because the enemy likely has vehicles out ready for a 420 manpower squadwipe.

For perspective, all 3-man squads in CoH2 share 2-3 characteristics:
-not very useful as combat troops, and focus on utility or support roles
-early CP unlock
-because of the two above, they are usually cheap

Perhaps what KCH needs to be is a more support-oriented unit? Or even a sort of upgrade similar to British infantry section's upgrades, whereas rather than discrete unit, it's a powerful modifier that requires you to upgrade individual existing units?

As for the rest of the commander abilities (which seem peripheral to the KCH concept given the relative lack of details), Propaganda War is too similar to Fear Prop Artillery. Perhaps modify it by, for example, making it similar to Assault Artillery where you can only target enemy sectors but instead of conventional shells with smoke, it's a large number of insta-suppression shells that don't cause retreat, but still offer great assistance to an attacking force. For balance (particualry against UKF), this includes all units, not merely infantry; vehicles and emplacements/ garrisoned units are "stunned", allowing your forces to approach to attack directly or flank.

Some other ideas worth thinking with a "Terror" theme I'm spitballing:

-Stuka incendiary bombs from Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine; would be similar to COH1's Firestorm barrage
-Incendiary modes for units like panzerwerfer/ mortars (taken from the defunct Urban Support Doctrine)
-incendiary grenades from OKW
-incendiary mines
-Zeal from CoH1's Terror Doctrine- at least for a CH unit, where their small unit size makes them hardier when they do lose units, that would surely make up for inability to pick up weapons or zero AT

Question remains is "why use KCH at all?". Panzergrenadiers might not have the same AI firepower but they can use panzerschrecks (whereas KCHs don't have any AT weapons, at least Fallschirmjaegers have Panzerfaust). If anything, KCH having faust is most logical given their high cost, small squad size, inability to pick up weapons and the risk-reward of a sturdy AI unit running to up tanks for a potential critical. Without it though you shoehorn them into the Ostheer equivalent of Obersoldaten- useful if you ever float on manpower.
You've clearly done your homework on the stats, but what about the concept and purpose of the unit? High cost and even higher CP to unlock makes them a very premium unit that by the time they are out, at the same time render all AI squads obsolete yet pointless because the enemy likely has vehicles out ready for a 420 manpower squadwipe.

For perspective, all 3-man squads in CoH2 share 2-3 characteristics:
-not very useful as combat troops, and focus on utility or support roles
-early CP unlock
-because of the two above, they are usually cheap

Perhaps what KCH needs to be is a more support-oriented unit? Or even a sort of upgrade similar to British infantry section's upgrades, whereas rather than discrete unit, it's a powerful modifier that requires you to upgrade individual existing units?

As for the rest of the commander abilities (which seem peripheral to the KCH concept given the relative lack of details), Propaganda War is too similar to Fear Prop Artillery. Perhaps modify it by, for example, making it similar to Assault Artillery where you can only target enemy sectors but instead of conventional shells with smoke, it's a large number of insta-suppression shells that don't cause retreat, but still offer great assistance to an attacking force. For balance (particualry against UKF), this includes all units, not merely infantry; vehicles and emplacements/ garrisoned units are "stunned", allowing your forces to approach to attack directly or flank.

Some other ideas worth thinking with a "Terror" theme I'm spitballing:

-Stuka incendiary bombs from Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine; would be similar to COH1's Firestorm barrage
-Incendiary modes for units like panzerwerfer/ mortars (taken from the defunct Urban Support Doctrine)
-incendiary grenades from OKW
-incendiary mines
-Zeal from CoH1's Terror Doctrine- at least for a CH unit, where their small unit size makes them hardier when they do lose units, that would surely make up for inability to pick up weapons or zero AT

To keep the KCH from being completely self-reliant, I removed the panzerfaust, which would force combined arms in order for them to exploit their main strength. To also make sure that they aren't instantly wiped, I lowered their taken accuracy/suppression, and increased the model health to 90, otherwise they would be easily focused on, and destroyed. With their AI capacity, they should be able to shred through unsupported infantry. The KCH would be useful to spearhead an infantry assault, due to their low received accuracy/suppression, and their main ability which breaks suppression ('Assault').

The Propaganda War is meant as more of a defensive ability instead of an offensive ability. It's able to send the enemy running back to their base, and can be combined with artillery targeted into the enemy base to instantly destroy blobs of infantry.

The Terror doctrine that I depict gameplay-wise is more of a assault-support (ironically better than the 'Assault Support' Doctrine itself) kind of doctrine, where It gives you the required abilities to breakthrough heavily defended positions, and supporting you forces as you move in. The Terror aspect of the doctrine isn't the 'pure essence' of the doctrine, but instead goes along the lining of all the abilities/units. The description explains it better in my opinion.

Removed the change to the 'Shoot For The Stars' Bulletin due to it being fixed on the February 25th patch.

I don't get the fuss over KCH tbh, even if they were objectively very OP in many roles which they aren't (you've actually balanced a new unit better than Relic, congrats) the unit still wouldn't be an issue because Ostheer and the nature of the rest of the commander.

While this would be impossible due to media reasons, a speaker upgrade available on the Skdz 251 halftrack that can inflict a temporary negative aura on units it targets through the fog of war (functioning like IR track) would be a neat substitute for Propaganda War. Combined with the command tank and KCH it could lead to greater offensive potential while still retaining the theme and mild defensive utility.

Overall though I'm really impressed at the legitimacy of your thread and I hope it inspires Relic.

I don't get the fuss over KCH tbh, even if they were objectively very OP in many roles which they aren't (you've actually balanced a new unit better than Relic, congrats) the unit still wouldn't be an issue because Ostheer and the nature of the rest of the commander.

While this would be impossible due to media reasons, a speaker upgrade available on the Skdz 251 halftrack that can inflict a temporary negative aura on units it targets through the fog of war (functioning like IR track) would be a neat substitute for Propaganda War. Combined with the command tank and KCH it could lead to greater offensive potential while still retaining the theme and mild defensive utility.

Overall though I'm really impressed at the legitimacy of your thread and I hope it inspires Relic.

Thanks for the response, and Cuddletronic did send my ideas to Relic's balance team . I'm probably going to be keeping propaganda war, which gives this doctrine an emergency response to an incoming allied blob. The speaker idea does fit this doctrine, but for now, I'm probably going to stick with what's worked before in coh1, considering a call-in ability is a lot easier to balance/maintain than another unit that has special properties; nevertheless, it's still a great idea that I would happily consider if I had an extra spot in this doctrine.

Any thoughts about me changing the camouflage vet 3 unlock to an extra squad member? I just thought about this after getting vet 3 REs while playing USF, and thought it could suite it better.

Trying to be realistic here, you have a higher chance of an Obersoldaten call-in because OKW and Ost can share commander units. (Ostwind, bunkers, Pak43, nondoc P4 and Panther)

I agree. Ober instead of KCH, axis have already excessive amounts of elite/unique infantry.

MAJOR UPDATE

Hello! I was recently working on a 'preview mod' of sorts, and I was able to come up with this. I did some testing, and the KCH should now be better balanced due to proper testing. The KCH are buildable in the Main HQ for Ostheer, but still have the 7 CP requirement.

Knight's Cross Holders Testing Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=628208750
Use the updated version that shows the changes to Both the Railway Artillery & the KCH:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=628820584

Knights Cross Holders:
Increased cost to 450 Manpower
New ability list:

• Grenade Assault [45 Munitions]
  
• Sprint [10 Munitions]
  
• Blendkorper 2H Smoke Grenade [30 Munitions; Vet 1]
  Vet 1: Unlocks the 'Blendkorper 2H Smoke Grenade'
  Vet 2: Decreases received accuracy and suppression by 12%
  Vet 3: Adds 0.25 Body armor (about half of the shock troops' body armor), and increases weapon accuracy by 12%.
  Model health reduced from 90 to 82
  Vet 1 XP Requirement: 950 XP
  Vet 2 XP Requirement: 2000 XP
  Vet 3 XP Requirement: 3250 XP
  Currently affected by Panzer Grenadier bulletins.
  Temporarily uses the same model as the Artillery Field Officer, and the same picture as the Sturm Officer.
  All unmentioned stats should remain the same as they were in the original post.
  
  If there are any changes I missed that you discover in-game, please tell me, so I can add it into the unit's notes.

why body armor for any infantry, except shocks having model with plate body armor? Your KCH would achive forged skin or steel balls at vet3? Any way good rec. acc. modifier are already there.

why body armor for any infantry, except shocks having model with plate body armour? Your KCH would achive forged skin or steel ball at vet3? Any way good rec. acc. modifier are already there.

Just to make them harder to wipe after achieving that oh so beautiful vet 3.
It honestly makes as much sense as the sniper bulletin that gives snipers armor if realism/visuals are a factor.

Adding KCH, easy. Adding Propaganda War, and Updated Railway Artillery... too much editing for me.

OK, I've gotten a preview mod for the new unit (KCH) AND the Railway artillery changes. The other units are in the game, and the Propaganda War is something that I'd have to leave up to Relic. Also, the Panzer IV Command Tank is a 9 CP call-in ability, my bad.

Preview for Railway Artillery Changes & KCH: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=628820584

Remove the KCH at 7 CP and put OKW Sturmpios at 0 CP.

Remove the KCH at 7 CP and put OKW Sturmpios at 0 CP.

Quick Answer:
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Added a full version of the 'Terror Doctrine' preview mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=629922434

Added visual previews for those who don't want to download the mod.

Awesome this is the best Commander proposal I have ever seen. Congratz!

Awesome this is the best Commander proposal I have ever seen. Congratz!

Hopefully this can become a reality in the actual game, more than just an idea/mod.

I bet this is on Relic's top to-do list, above marketing ESL, adding DLC, and fixing the game as is. WHY DO YOU PEOPLE WANT MORE CONTENT. CAN WE PLS FIX WHAT WE HAVE.

Srsly though, didn't think you'd come this far. Here ya go, pal.

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