What do you think about T0 mg's

This isn't about how to counter MG's or who has what tools to do so.

This is just a general discussion about the current state of game play, more so in the 2v2 and up game modes where the current start is for anyone who has MG's to rush key buildings.

Obviously for Soviets, USF and OKW they have MG's either locked behind tiers or commander call ins meaning they have no way of getting an MG in the key building first and instead charge starting infantry to deny entry to the enemy.

Does this actually appeal to anyone? Most games now seem to be about dislodging the key building of MGs which can be harder for some factions until side tech is unlocked.

I preferred when everyone had to tier for MG's not just start with them as the first unit built. This to me offered a more free flowing start of the game then the stagnant MG wall we currently have.

What say you??

Both factions with t0 MGs don't really have the capability for fast map control and aggressive infantry play. They can defend better early game but can not attack.

I didn't think it was necessary for Ostheer to move MG42 to T0, it means you no longer have to choose between training Grenadiers and support weapons, you can now train both at once. Prior to the change I think it made a nice asymmetrical design effect as UKF was the only faction that had true T0 MG. But I suppose it was too difficult for Ostheer to get a good start if they had to first build T1, (which meant either 200mp for Pioniers or using your only starting unit which prevents map taking).

There is also the fact that Ostheer is the only faction that doesn't have any T0 mainline infantry. Volks, Riflemen, Section and Conscripts can be trained immediately. The proviso for Ostheer is that instead of Grenadiers you can opt to focus on HMGs immediately. Given the defensive-oriented makeup for Ostheer this seems reasonable.

IMO it ended up not being a terrible change.

I never understood why the MG42 was put in T0. Sure, it made it easier to get out MGs a few seconds quicker as Ostheer, but that wasn't ever an issue. I do remember USF overwhelming Ostheer's comparative inability to field an army though.

But I always felt the issue was with USF, not Ostheer.

Think it effects random team match ups more so.

Worst one I saw was 4 Ostheer vs 4 USK. Was an MG nightmare.

Obviously to replace the TO mg's the base line infantry should be part of it and in the Brits position engineers could replace the Vick.

This at least promotes the illusion of combined arms. Sure you could wait to you built your building or tier up and still go ham but loosing the map control by having no second starting unit would be a set back.

Well dealing with it was terrible at first but everyone got used to it. I still don't like the idea of versing MGs in the initial engagement where you have one or two units on the field.

It kind of gets ridiculous at times forcing a retreat so early on. But it's fine I guess.

In fact, it's balanced because your sacrificing 260/280 MP for a unit that has no support early game besides a Pioneer or an Infantry Section, one wrong move and the MG is toast or has to retreat.

In fact, it's balanced because your sacrificing 260/280 MP for a unit that has no support early game besides a Pioneer or an Infantry Section, one wrong move and the MG is toast or has to retreat.

This I definitely agree with on open maps where flanking is more easily achieved but the maps with Key buildings that are rushed should arrive first relatively safe. The only exception being Sturmpio reaching a Vickers rushing the key building.

Super early in the game the MG technically has no counter, which I find annoying. At the same time if you do a wide wide flank they instantly lose.

I think the root of the problem is some maps just aren't large enough for a super flank.

Rushing my MG to the house on Semosky as Ost

GG, game over. That needs to be fixed, it's so easy to lock to cut off point on that map.

Super early in the game the MG technically has no counter, which I find annoying. At the same time if you do a wide wide flank they instantly lose.

I think the root of the problem is some maps just aren't large enough for a super flank.

Agreed, I always found it interesting that even if at the start of the game if you do manage to flank an over extended MG in a building and drop it that you cannot recover the MG. Often we leave the MG in the building to die rather then let the USF,OKW or Soviets get their greedy mits on a vickers or MG42 if they are covering the doors.

If you do manage to dislodge it in the house unlike the open you cannot turn it on the enemy.

I Would like the option to recover the MG from the house. You had to work harder to get it so why deny it to me?

there's nothing wrong with t0 HMGs; there is an issue with not having counters to them until ~~3 minutes into the game.

The most annoying thing about the t0 mgs are that the MG42 and Vickers are incredibly good, better than the 50 cal and mg34 for sure.

Everyone always fucking wants all factions to have access to the same tools at roughly the same times. It's quite irritating.

What makes factions interesting is that they don't have this access. USF has Volley Fire to make up for their lack of early machine gun, Soviets can build t2 and a maxim within the first 10 seconds of the game. Factions having different tools at different times is hugely important.

OKW had kubelwagons, but Relic went and fucked up OKW up so *shrug*. Gotta make do with MG34's, flak emplacements or flak halftrack.

I don't think Wehrmacht needed T0 HMG, I'm not really sure why that was changed, but it's not a problem.

Rushing my MG to the house on Semosky as Ost

GG, game over. That needs to be fixed, it's so easy to lock to cut off point on that map.

While summer Semois is easily the shittiest map, you can circumvent this sort of tactic simply by capping the other side of the map. Theoretically if he has a 260mp MG42 in a house and you have an extra 260mp in units you'll smack his army if he does engage you with everything else. (Which he probably won't anyway)

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I do fucking want want all the factions to have access to roughly the same tools at roughly the same time and on that you wont convince me that this way is better just like I won't convince you so I am happy to leave it at that and agree to disagree (didn't see the need for you too swear so instead of questioning or bitching I will just join you)

I don't really know what to say in regards to the volley fire comment. If your saying that having access to similar tools put forward in a different way is a good thing then I do agree and if all the other factions had something at the early faze of the game to counter or replicate the effect of MGs in buildings this wouldn't be an issue and I wouldn't of made a post asking peoples thoughts. Let main infantry breech doors on buildings for a munitions cost so MG's have to cover entry points would be interesting or completely stupid not sure..


If your saying that the volley fire on RE's in it's current shape is a solid tool working as intended to share a similar function as an MG I couldn't disagree more (The nerf hammer hit them too hard) it needed a nerf but not that hard. When I see someone hit it I have plenty of time to walk out of range or reach green cover to negate the effect and I am thankful it is going to delay a bar/zook or nade for a couple seconds.

Your spot on about the kubel being a suppressing platform meaning no MG required but that is gone and the UFS and Soviets building/MG counters are locked behind fuel costs that cannot be obtained in the first couple minutes of game play. I am not a fan of one faction or another. I don't care which I play (I tend to go for quickest search time) I just want to have a counter I can build when I face this and not have to sit there to for 3-4 minutes to get the unlocks I need to counter something done in the first 30 seconds of game play. I have gone to playing as Brits and Ostheer only in larger game modes because if like me you cannot beat them then join them.

The original post mentions T0 MG's has a more of a snowball effect in the larger game modes because it is unlikely (depending on faction match up) that it will only be one side of a map locked down by MG's at the very start but almost all of it. In 1v1 and to some extent 2v2 I agree that ignoring the MGs location makes sense as you can wander past and back cap cut off points with superior numbers but it becomes hard in the larger maps due to a number of reasons I am sure I don't need to explain.

If your a primarily 1v1 player I concede this probably isn't as big an issue for you as I know in 2v2s it isn't so bad but for the larger game modes (who many play and I do if I don't really want to think) this will be more frustrating.

I like games being about player choice, not faction choice. Just my 2 cents.

1v1 is the same shit, rush key buildings or cutoff points. The Start of every game is just a race to key points to denie the other player. I find its VERY BORING meta

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Different factions have different strengths. America has stronger infantry with great fire on the move, so they don't get suppression right away. Brit tommies are great in cover and garrisons and get excellent suppression, but they don't have much in the way of smoke abilities. (Until Cromwell anyway.) Soviets have cheap, spammable infantry and great light vehicles but their infantry lacks the same stopping power as other factions with their weapon upgrades.

Every faction has the tools to do every job, just in different places. (And most doctrines provide tools that fill in the holes. I.E flamers for USF and OKW, PPSH and guard rifles for soviet etc. Some factions require units to work together a bit more, while others have more independent counters.

Honestly there's already been enough homogenization in the game.
[rant]
Why does every faction have the exact same mines? Whatever happened to those cheap, spammable USF mines? Why did Relic give OKW, USF and Brits fucking sandbags when the whole point of Conscripts having a sandbag wall was to give them an edge over stronger, more upgraded units? (Especially when brits and USF have trenches/fighting positions...) Why are throwables all inconsistently performing yet the best grenades in the game are cheap as shit? (Grenade assault, anyone?)[/rant]

The original post mentions T0 MG's has a more of a snowball effect in the larger game modes because it is unlikely (depending on faction match up) that it will only be one side of a map locked down by MG's at the very start but almost all of it. In 1v1 and to some extent 2v2 I agree that ignoring the MGs location makes sense as you can wander past and back cap cut off points with superior numbers but it becomes hard in the larger maps due to a number of reasons I am sure I don't need to explain.

If your a primarily 1v1 player I concede this probably isn't as big an issue for you as I know in 2v2s it isn't so bad but for the larger game modes (who many play and I do if I don't really want to think) this will be more frustrating.

Team games are shit. They didn't even divide the resources by amount of players in this game like they did in DoW2. It's horrendously imbalanced trash and never will be balanced until Relic fixes the economy.

Every Relic game I've ever played has had maps where people rush an MG into a key building. The way to be successful there was just to stack another part of the map with a teammate. Why not just ignore whatever part of the map the houses are at and attack your opponent in their backline? Are all four players in a 4v4 game building early machine guns and placing them everywhere on the map? There's going to be holes in their coverage, and if not you can make them with plenty of tools.


Also, CoH2 is the only game that has smoke that completely stop a mg in a house from doing anything and has the weakest suppression out of all three of Relic's games to feature suppression. (Coh1 and DoW2 both had much faster suppression. Green cover in Coh2 largely negates it entirely.) Every faction save for Brits has extremely early access to smoke. (most of brit smoke is on cromwells/vet0 comets.) Every faction has some sort of transport vehicle available pretty early on, except for OKW.

Honestly, if people learned to use the smoke barrage once in awhile on their mortars, they'd have a much easier time.

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You are spot on about the resource income in larger game modes. Has been my biggest gripe about this game. The reason they are not taken seriously is because they are a spam fest and the timing is all off because the small window for light vehicle play is shortened even further and munition abilities are to prevalent. Drop the income proportionally to match the 1v1/2v2 game modes and you will go a long way to fixing the issued of the larger game modes. The argument that relic needs to fix the balance in 1v1 before the others is completely correct IF they make the resource income the same. Do this and you fix most of the balance issue in the higher game modes. Also would help reduce heavy MG spam builds.

Also agree with pretty much all your points on most things, the assault grenades and the sandbag thing drives me nuts. Conscripts need it as you said but the others do not. The only gripe I have is the MG so early and so spam-able. Your right the soviets can have maxims out in 30 seconds and into buildings about 50sec-1minute into the game but I am cool with that. It is one minute of MG free bliss where all infantry have a chance against each other. Sure Rifleman beat most things on the move but a sturmpio walking around a corner can shred them, brits in green cover are unbeatable but an grenadier squad catches one out and its going to be close depending on range.

Possibly on the larger game modes it is also the retreat time caused by a unit pinned at the beginning of the game. A retreat at the start of Hill 331 takes minutes to recover from.

I like games being about player choice, not faction choice. Just my 2 cents.

Sorry mate I am a bit slow, do you mind expanding on this as I think I know what your saying but not sure.

I think it's a good thing. At least for wehrmacht, which can't fight riflemen or infantry sections with grenadiers at all during the early game. The quick MG is a must.