Fixing Volks - MP40s for shrecks

Can somebody explain to me why volks are an issue but dual zook rifles are not. these guys are even worse then the vanilla vg's

Can somebody explain to me why volks are an issue but dual zook rifles are not. these guys are even worse then the vanilla vg's

-They are both more expensive to build and to reinforce
-You are losing more AI by having 2 zooks than only 1 shreck
-Lower damage and lower penetration against higher armored tanks
-Burst damage. While zooks have higher RoF, what it matters is only the first or second salvo.

People don't care about zook rifles as it's way more scary double bar/1919 rifles.

-They are both more expensive to build and to reinforce
-You are losing more AI by having 2 zooks than only 1 shreck
-Lower damage and lower penetration against higher armored tanks
-Burst damage. While zooks have higher RoF, what it matters is only the first or second salvo.

People don't care about zook rifles as it's way more scary double bar/1919 rifles.

To address point 1 -4 you are incorrect. you need far less rifles squads achieve the same effects of the a vg with shreks. 2 rifles with zooks will kill a medium tank in the second volley. you will need 3 vg's for the same effect. they win in burst because a riflesquad will do 160 compared to the volks 120 damage . Because you need less squad you are using far less mp.

Your correct on lower AI but i do not judge dedicated AT units on the performance of their AI.

You are also incorrect about the heavies. the zooks do their damage against them through deflection damage. zooks are more less equal in shreks in that department. But BOTH weapons suck against heavies anyway

In short you have rifles who have 24 dps against tanks compared to the vg's 14 dps. also veterancy means that they will receive -50% received accuracy compared to the volks only get 20%. All in all current rifles with zook are significant more potent then prenerfed volks.

so their is no need to nerf volks or to change it.

MP40s...yeah, I wouldn't even take those if they were free

Shrecks should be changed tho. Having those on a mainline infantry squad was a bad idea to begin with.

Instead of actually getting a shreck with 35 range, upgrading shrecks could unlock the ability to fire one rocket with 100% accuracy. Just like a PzFaust but with slightly longer activation range (like +5 range or something).

Once the squad reaches a certain vet rank, a new shreck ability could be unlocked that has the same range as the other shreck ability but deals less damage for a temporary or permanent engine crit (for ammo of course). Both shreck abilities would share the same cooldown to prevent double taps.

That would make Volks less efficient vs tanks by just A-moving and would reward the player with good accuracy if he manages to get within range.

As AI upgrade, an Ober model could replace one of the Volksgrenadiers. Having an Ober as veteran in the squad could unlock a new ability that buffs the squad's defense or offense for like 10 seconds or something).

At least the MP40's accuracy should buffed to at least con ppsh level.

-They are both more expensive to build and to reinforce
-You are losing more AI by having 2 zooks than only 1 shreck
-Lower damage and lower penetration against higher armored tanks
-Burst damage. While zooks have higher RoF, what it matters is only the first or second salvo.

People don't care about zook rifles as it's way more scary double bar/1919 rifles.

You also have to retreat that much sooner due to higher risk of dropping them.

I'm liking the idea of a Panzerjager squad, but the MP-40s are bad and I think its safe to say nobody really wants to see LMG blobs replacing Shrek blobs.

Personally, I think they should be a little like the PE with a variety of upgrades. Give them stick-nade back, remove flame-nade and give them either a 2x AT Rifle package, a 3-4x G43 package and a Flamethrower package, all mutually exclusive.

To address point 1 -4 you are incorrect. you need far less rifles squads achieve the same effects of the a vg with shreks. 2 rifles with zooks will kill a medium tank in the second volley. you will need 3 vg's for the same effect. they win in burst because a riflesquad will do 160 compared to the volks 120 damage . Because you need less squad you are using far less mp.

Your correct on lower AI but i do not judge dedicated AT units on the performance of their AI.

You are also incorrect about the heavies. the zooks do their damage against them through deflection damage. zooks are more less equal in shreks in that department. But BOTH weapons suck against heavies anyway

In short you have rifles who have 24 dps against tanks compared to the vg's 14 dps. also veterancy means that they will receive -50% received accuracy compared to the volks only get 20%. All in all current rifles with zook are significant more potent then prenerfed volks.

so their is no need to nerf volks or to change it.

First of all, i'm just gonna say that whatever they do with Volks is gonna be a mess as at the moment, they are practically a needed evil.

Cost opportunity: you don't lose "anything" by upgrading Volks. There's no good reason to not have the upgrade. If you upgrade 2 Rifles with Zooks, this means you have at most 1 or 2 squads more of Rifles to do the heavy lifting on the AI.

Zooks don't have guaranteed penetration against normal mediums.
Penetration on average:
Ostwind (100%) Stug (85%) PIV (67%) JPIV (52%) PIV OKW (51%) Hetzer (67%)
PV (38%) SPIV (46%) ST (55%)
PVI (40%) Ele (30%) KT (32%) JT (23%)

T3476 Su85 M4C M4 M36 M10 Centaur Cromwell Firefly (100%)
T3485 (100%) KV8 (71%) KV1 (63%) E8 (79%) Bulldozer (85%) Pershing (57%) Comet (59%)
IS2 (45%) ISU (55%) KV2 (57%) Churchill (71%)

Deflection damage is for both at 25% (20/30 respectively). Both "sucks" against them, but they are not meant to kill them rather than support in damage.

Receive accuracy only matters against the tanks MGs, as it mostly have no effect against the main gun of the tanks (with the exception against Flak HT, P2, Centaur)

I don't want this to keep derailing but you asked:
"Can somebody explain to me why volks are an issue but dual zook rifles are not. these guys are even worse then the vanilla vg's"

It's simple. While we can discuss performance of Shcreck vs Zook and Rifle vs Volks all day, the reality shows that we don't see Rifle Zook blobs running around as much Volks blobs with shcrecks. The later is mostly as that it's only and main role.

I'm liking the idea of a Panzerjager squad, but the MP-40s are bad and I think its safe to say nobody really wants to see LMG blobs replacing Shrek blobs.

Personally, I think they should be a little like the PE with a variety of upgrades. Give them stick-nade back, remove flame-nade and give them either a 2x AT Rifle package, a 3-4x G43 package and a Flamethrower package, all mutually exclusive.

Recently I'm working on a mod to play with my friends. Three of the changes are the next:
-Volksgrenadiers now have grenadier panzerfaust ability (copy paste)
-Volksgrenadiers can choose one (and only one) from the following upgrades:2x G43 for 60 muni (requirement: 1. halftruck set), 3x MP40 (con ppsh stats) for 40 muni (requirement: 2. halftruck set), 1x Mg34 for 60 muni (requirement: 3. halftruck set)
-tankbuster squad (2.truck): 320manpower, 4man, 3xMP40 (inferior stats to volk MP40 package) 1xShrek.

The thing is, I really don't know how this would work in the game, so hard testing will be done.

I think one would see more zook spam if there was no M1, or M10 in the faction. There really isn't a need. Or maybe it's not done because no high level player ever tested it out. It might be secretly op.

More on topic. MP40's when we already have Sturms? Ew. I would rather just take away the shrek and make the raketen a buffed up AT unit to compensate, with a snare given to Volks. And I'm not even a fan of that.

Why not start with a small nerf to shrek long range accuracy?

I think the reason zook spam isnt as big of a deal is because 1. There is an unlock fee (vs congrats on progressing naturally through the match, have free stuff) 2. Its less potent- if you can have 2 m42 or a zis... 3. Is probably the biggest factor imo and thats ease of acquisition- you can get a shrek while walking to a point after retreating to med truck (hell you can "get" it in mid retreat!) for zooks you need to take your unit off the field, you need to give up field presence in order to grab one, and its not like the USF base design helps... All in all the "what you put in" vs "what you get out of it" isnt worth it in the end (imo)

However, OKW would still need some form of hard infantry AT. Maybe a solution to this is to put a Panzerjager 4-man squad which is armed with double shrecks in T2 (or Med truck tier), possibly costing around 250 - 290 MP and the other 2 members are armed with Kars. These shrecks can be replenished if dropped for a cost of muni. This could replace the map-hack HT in the med truck.

People will just rushtech T2 and then blob with your Panzerjagers idea. 290MP isn't a huge cost to 4-man squad, especially if you got like one Volksgrenadier squad nearby to pick up dropped panzerschrecks.
It might fix volksblob, but the result is creating a different blob. It may be even worse as you no longer need T1 queue to get Kubels, trucks and Sturms, you have a separate T2 queue for AT blobs. For better results, you train a mix of PJs and Volks and blob your way to victory.

As for becoming more like Ostheer, it shouldn't be embraced.

In any case few people will bother with a MP40 upgrade, they'll keep the slots and munitions for re-equipping panzerschrecks and dropped LMGs, etc.

Well, yes, but OKW doesn't have any non-doc soft AT either. In any case, no AT ability or weapon in the game is locked behind vet.

Rifleman Vet 1 AT nade? Was the main reason I like Rifle Company so much. Didn't force Zooks on me to counter LV's.

Can somebody explain to me why volks are an issue but dual zook rifles are not. these guys are even worse then the vanilla vg's

American players don't remember to buy weapon upgrades ever.

It's simple. While we can discuss performance of Shcreck vs Zook and Rifle vs Volks all day, the reality shows that we don't see Rifle Zook blobs running around as much Volks blobs with shcrecks. The later is mostly as that it's only and main role.

That still doesn't make it an balance issue.

American players don't remember to buy weapon upgrades ever.

A lot of the time it's better to keep using grenades because they win you individual engagements. Plus mines everywhere

A lot of the time it's better to keep using grenades because they win you individual engagements. Plus mines everywhere

I regularly see players floating ~150-200 muni (Sometimes 300-400) and not getting weapon upgrades. Even at high level.

There's a balance in between the two I think. (I say this as a player who spams grenades and mines to my own detriment.) BARs are way better than the garand at close to medium range and bazookas give you a lot of versatility.

That still doesn't make it an balance issue.

More like balance + design issue. Again, you asked why people perceive Volk + shcreck as a problem? I answered.

@Dullahan yeah your right on about there being a balance, I think a lot of USF get forced into the tunnel vision mindset when that faction suffers the most from tunnel vision.

On topic: OKW needs a frontline unit that can hold the center of the map and do alright on the sides vs all targets, the issue is volks are too effective on the sides and not good enough center, this leads to blobs. I think reducing shrek range by 5 and making them a more robust anti infantry unit (SMGs, some kind of ability, received acc nerf/buff with model cost changes) is the solution. I also think that removing puppchen camo but increasing range would be good.

People will just rushtech T2 and then blob with your Panzerjagers idea. 290MP isn't a huge cost to 4-man squad, especially if you got like one Volksgrenadier squad nearby to pick up dropped panzerschrecks.
It might fix volksblob, but the result is creating a different blob. It may be even worse as you no longer need T1 queue to get Kubels, trucks and Sturms, you have a separate T2 queue for AT blobs. For better results, you train a mix of PJs and Volks and blob your way to victory.

As for becoming more like Ostheer, it shouldn't be embraced.

In any case few people will bother with a MP40 upgrade, they'll keep the slots and munitions for re-equipping panzerschrecks and dropped LMGs, etc.

Not really.

Because the spam of units that only have AT units will lead to trouble with OKW, especially considering how strong allied infantry is.

That and considering how panzjerjager squads as proposed start with AT rifles and you still have to upgrade schrecks, you wouldn't necessary have a volksquad to tag along.

MP40 upgrade is designed to be situational. It can help in certain situations and certain maps just like in VCoH. It's not like the LMG42 upgrade which is always good.