Ostheer Stormtrooper Upgrades

All of these squads have less flexibility(though falls ability and weapon kit is most all around use here), all of these squads also forego defense for the offense and have low or no rec acc modifiers,

You analysis is flawed...
first of all units do not come with rec accuracy they come with target size...
falls=0.87, commandos=0.72, partisans=1, JLI=0.8, S.T.=0.75
Commandos come with smmaller size and better weapons, the rest are close and only Partisan have a big difference in is size. On the other hand Partisan come out with weapons and pay no premium for spawning out of buildings...

...storms start off with less firepower, but have best camo and you can select a role for them after initial strike, which is also useful(with StGs and good use of ability and camo, they might just as well be called axis commandos). You can upgrade their weapons on hostile territory

They do not have the beast camo because the get no first strike bonuses unlike commandos or the ostheer doctrinal camo...Their initial strike is either delayed because they have to upgrade with weapons fist or pretty weak compared to other units because their K98 are not very good for ambushes...Most OKW can upgrade in hostile territories and so can Airborne

...and decaping that point or chasing away HMG is what they don't really struggle when deployed, so they do fill that role here just as any other ambush troop. Upgrades are price-y, but remember their pshreck, much like volks, do not remove their AI potential compeltely and they can still be of some use here, StGs+ability+camo is well worth the cost already.

Decap and chasing mg partisan can do cheaper without even having to MU.

The Pshreck upgrade is laughable, AT partisan come with cheaper fully loaded and with access to mines and AT grenades making far better AT unit...

StGs+ability+camo is UP compared to commando and is not cost efficient compared to PG+camo+first strike bonus.

I still don't see why they would need ober kars, pgren G43 upgrade make mre sense here, but the squad costs 30mp more then grens and have default camo and much better rec acc, stat wise they are already cost effective as they are, I'm glad you understood opportunity cost quickly and I don't have to argue about that

No they not cost effective as they are even penal and Riflemen are more durable cost about the same and have allot more DPS mid to close.

I've already explained cost effectiveness, but I can address AT partisans as well-its a 4 men squad with 0 rec acc bonuses against armies with weapons that have DPS scaled to fight 5-6 men squads. They do not start with AT nades, you want AT nades on them, you need to research them, its not their default utility.
And finally, shreck, yes they do start with it, but their rifles are utterly useless and they could just as well throw bad words at germans, so you're paying 270mp for single shreck on squad which is 50% less durable then usual soviet squads(which means its squishy as F and reinforces for crapload) and doesn't even have all of its utilities by default.
Storms getting same treatment as partisans would mean you'd have 2 squads instead of single flexible one.

AT partisan are meant to ambush vehicles not infantry and the target size not very important when fighting tanks...Further more the contrary to other spwaning units they pay NO premium for coming out of buildings, and compared to 25% premium S.T. pay that is quite a difference.

Ost do have extremely cost effective inf, even pgrens are cost effective, which we've seen most recently on ESL(inb4 the usuals with denial jump in). Thing is, ost isn't reliant on any kind of elite inf, they have storms, but they don't need them and for the stats and what they do, storms are pretty well balanced.
0.75 rec acc, gren vet, pg weapons with useful abilities(though StGs>shreck here, no question)
They are useful, but they are also muni sink, they aren't meant to be used like allied(soviet) elite troops as they aren't main line inf(however they can perform like one).
I got the feeling that people want them to be some kind of ost obersoldaten-that won't happen.

Ost do not have cost effective inf because they bleed far too much both by reinforcement and by squad wipes...

Your analysis is based in flaws and thus comes to wrong conclusions...

They do not have the beast camo because the get no first strike bonuses unlike commandos or the ostheer doctrinal camo...Their initial strike is either delayed because they have to upgrade with weapons fist or pretty weak compared to other units because their K98 are not very good for ambushes...Most OKW can upgrade in hostile territories and so can Airborne

[...]

StGs+ability+camo is UP compared to commando and is not cost efficient compared to PG+camo+first strike bonus.

video

finish off a half health 4 squad with 340 Man power for 100 Mu +25 is hardly worth the cost already, when one can have camo PG for 340 manpower and 30 MU that do get a first strike bonus or commando who can do the same faster and with no MU cost...

for 125 Mu 4 mines can get allot more squad wipes...

The ability is not bad it not as cost efficient as other things....

Just tested them. In scenario when they ambush a single squad of unvetted shocktroopers (since they are most "fat" inf in the game), using STG+focus fire ability. They are able to put down like 3-4 models, before shocks came to close range and kill them almost instantly.

In that case I would say that they are able to deal huge damage to wounded or non full squads.

But the main problem - fact that comparing them to other inf like they e.g. partisans, fallshims, paras and rangers with tompsons, I would say that they need some buffs.

For excample if you compare them to partisans\fallshims both of they are insanely overperform stormtroopers simply because they came with their automatic weapons and they can finish\wipe squads and support weapons right of the bat. Sturms require not only ammo but time to get their StGs.

When you compare them to units like schocks, paras and rangers, they all outperforming them, because they are in general can deal huge damage upclose and have really good survivability. Same with Commandos (but lets not take them, because they are overpriced in stock commander).

AT partisans are better in every single way then AT stormtroopers. Not only because they have schreck, but because they are cheaper, come with schreck instantly, have mines and AT nade.

In that case, stormtroopers are ONLY good in defense and camping the points AND they require really good support.

In that case I would suggest a few options:

1) Remove ability to spawn from buildings, left cost untouched but also give them StG as default upgrade

or

2) Same as first, but make them cost 250-260 MP, without StG and let them come at 0CP (to make them replacement for grenadiers). StG\schreck (cost untouched) upgrade available after T2 unlock.

or

3) Left everything as it is right now, but reduce cost of StG to 60-80 muni.

or

4) Left everything as it is, but make StG instant upgrade without research time and remove speed penalty from focus fire ability.

or

5) Left everything as it is, but remove damage\speed penalties from focus fire ability.

or

6)Left everything as it is, but reduce cost of sturmtroopers to 250-260 MP

And their vet requirements should be lower for sure. Because they have to kill full HP shocktrooper squad (390 MP) to have only half of the bar for vet1.

@Myself: i've seen you remark this previously, but everyone on the forum refers to base size as receive accuracy. The purpose it serves is equal.

Proposed changes:

1- Bring in lines xp requirements to other units.

2- Reduce cost of STG upgrade to 75

3- Replace gren G43 with PG G43.
a- I'll give PG G43 same crit chance as JLI
b- Either the same as 3.1 or a snipe ability

4- For the shreck upgrades i'll go with either or both options.
a- Give them the same tracking ability Hammer gives to tanks.
b- I would be more confident suggesting this is camo functionality wasn't as broken. First strike out of camo gives the same engine debuff the Aec has for the first hit.

5- Change cap speed. I'll go with a revert cap of 1.5 and capture speed of 0.75. Good at neutralizing, slower at capturing, but overall faster.

Just tested them. In scenario when they ambush a single squad of unvetted shocktroopers (since they are most "fat" inf in the game), using STG+focus fire ability. They are able to put down like 3-4 models, before shocks came to close range and kill them almost instantly.

There are 2 problems here:
1- Ambush ability (same with paras) gives a debuff of .5 into receive accuracy. This is a huge buff to SMG like weapons.
2- Shocktroops have armor instead of RA. Unless they have vet or are crossing through cover, part of the buff goes to waste.

Wow...i didn't expect that Stormtroopers are so well discussed.

Well i have tried them a little bit oftener, and i like them more and more. I like the encirclement doctrine too it can be very useful.

But the Problem is the doctrine is too Munitions heavy especially when you need Storms and want them to be effective you must buy de 100 Muntion STG.

Yes the Storms would be OP when they came with STGs. I think not that they are bad. But i would be fine with it when the STGs cost less.

Considering that thompsons cost 90 muni, StG price isn't really off here.

There are 2 problems here:
1- Ambush ability (same with paras) gives a debuff of .5 into receive accuracy. This is a huge buff to SMG like weapons.
2- Shocktroops have armor instead of RA. Unless they have vet or are crossing through cover, part of the buff goes to waste.

Sure thing, main reason why I tested stoms against them, because shocks are hardest inf to kill, so by looking at how they perform against them you pretty much can understand how they would perform against other targets.

So if they can put down 3-4 shock models, then it means that they could wipe or put down to 1 model any other squad.

But problem is still here, storms are good, but at the same time other assault inf\ambush inf can perform better because of cost\timing\abilities.

Considering that thompsons cost 90 muni, StG price isn't really off here.

Tompsons are much better then StG at close range and they pretty much destroys inf at close range, while StG are mid range weapon which require time to deal good damage, not to mention that Rangers are much easy to vet up and less venerable to squad wipes + they have slot for additional weapon.

On the other hand storms have camo and can have slightly deadlier StG performance by using focus fire ability, but if you use this ability wrong it could mean squad wipe like instantly.

Not to mention that rangers will beat stormtroopers in most of the situations, hell, all they need - throw nade to sturms and it will mean wipe or insta retreat because of speed penalty.

tl:dr for thread

Stormtroopers can be good if used correctly, though costly. They'd probably benefit from slight decrease in upgrade cost and/or EXP requirement reduction.

Buy 1 or 2 with STG and utilize Focus Fire intelligently to wipe retreating or unattended squads. (I also like to use them to pop out of buildings by unsupported weapons crews and surprise grenade them).

@Myself: i've seen you remark this previously, but everyone on the forum refers to base size as receive accuracy. The purpose it serves is equal.

It depends if it used before or after accuracy check...The accuracy check vs target size X as far as I know is capped at 1. If the received accuracy modifier is applied before the accuracy check then they are equal...If the accuracy modifier is applied after the check they are not equal...and a shot with 100% on accuracy check would still be able to miss

The XP and vet issues definitely need a fix. Both should mirror Pgrens except Vet 1, which should be self-healing to fit the unit better.

I timed it, a stormtrooper took 3 seconds to wipe a damage 4 man rifle squad at point blank range. Thats a an awful video. Can someone use the cheat mod and give us a more accurate representation please?

Also spawning with 1 stg44 and upgrading to the other 3 for 70 muni is an idea.

They are a gimmicky unit primarily feautured in a gimmicky commander; The encirclement commander.

It is all about one thing; High risk, high reward. Time Close the Pocket or an ambush with Stormtroopers generates the same result; Either total destruction or total failure. I think it is fine