T70 needs IMMEDIATE NERF

I disagree. Nerfing range to shrek range would make the T70 gimp. On a tank that's geared toward fighting infantry, it shouldn't be counterable with only infantry. A double shrek hit will take this thing out (I think). Yes, it's too good right now. No, I don't agree with a range nerf as the fix.

Apparently Nullist knows better than everybody else and other people opinion doesn`t matter to him

Keep in mind an increase to the PAKs accuracy will not only improve performance vs. tanks but infantry as well.

If you want the T70 to be hit more often, you likely mean to increase its target size.

A well microed T70 is uncounterable at its timing.

A) Due to its outranging Faust and Shrek.
B) Due to it owning the 222.
C) Due to PaKs patent inability to hit it.

A well microed T70 is uncounterable at its timing.

A) Due to its outranging Faust and Shrek.
B) Due to it owning the 222.
C) Due to PaKs patent inability to hit it.

Yes pqumsieh, that's the solution I prefer.

As for this range discussion... Unless I'm missing something, a 222 can shoot conscripts without getting into AT grenade range. Killing a well microed 222 is really hard with conscripts because... it's meant to counter conscripts. The same should be the case with the T70. If the Pak can hit it, we're good. There are plenty of times that I've used T70s in which I would have gotten blown out of the water if the Paks were hitting consistently.

Shreks, dude. Shrek range.
Nobody has suggested the range be reduced to Faust range.

PaKs are a far wider balance problem.

(And as to the 222, its nigh useless vs infantry (Note 221 is vanilla, 222 is upgunned).

Hah, now thats funny! Guy who is saying that german army has no solid counter to T70, tells us the way soviets should counter P4 - you need just a 'single' T34 to disable it for 10 seconds (loosing T34 in 95% chance, P4 will survive in 9 out of 10 cases, also there is a good chance of T34 pathfinding glitch, leaving the latter with overhaet engine), and this is considered a 'good' counter, while shrecks killing T70 in couple of volleys is a 'bad' counter. After reading the thread all I see is a lot of wide red holes, which used to be brown and tiny... and now they scream for revenge!

The balance decisions and statements are made on hundreds, thousands of games - only statistic might show the narrow places in balance, not the single point of view, even from pros (they also might expierence sudden discomfort below the spine). And I dont doupt even the slightest that everyone here have that much expierence.

If you cant take out a unit that can't move, and probably can't shoot at you, in ten seconds, then you don't have the necessary forces to support that Ram. If you simply rammed for the sake of ramming, then you deserve to lose that T34, and he deserves to limp away.

Its is true that it is unfeasible to have T3 and T4, which is why I suggested having a ZiS in that case. The T70 is a very viable unit if you have control of the Axis' fuel.

The Germans DO have solid counters to the T70, but not when it has just arrived. It is a shock unit, if the Soviet played his cards right, because it has a small window to pay for itself, and diminish the enemy field presence. If you kill a Pio squad and an MG or something similar, then you have more or less made up its cost. Those are two easy targets. If you happen to kill his Flame Ht, your entire unit is paid for. Kill a PGren with shreks and have him drop a shrek: you have paid for a big chunk of the T70...

The T70 doesn't need to be a bigger target, tbh. It just needs to have its range reduced to that of Shreks. You can still kite them (because they need to stop to shoot, you don't), but a skilled german player will flank you. It requires a lot more micro and risk form the German side, and investment, too (360mp and 120 munis).

EDIT: It takes three shreks to kill a T70. It takes two shots from T70 to kill an enemy(discounting the occasional crit). The T70 fires in bursts of 4 shots, I think. If that burst happens to kill a single PGren, there's a chance he'll drop the shrek and lose one of his shots. You can also draw shrek fire away from the T70 (its a nifty trick) and attack the shreks during their cooldown (Stephen suggested this once).

EDIT: It takes three shreks to kill a T70. It takes two shots from T70 to kill an enemy(discounting the occasional crit). The T70 fires in bursts of 4 shots, I think. If that burst happens to kill a single PGren, there's a chance he'll drop the shrek and lose one of his shots. You can also draw shrek fire away from the T70 (its a nifty trick) and attack the shreks during their cooldown (Stephen suggested this once).

Three shots to kill a T70? In that case, I'll give in to you guys' argument here. I think that the range change is reasonable.

Both sides need things fixing, it's still relatively early days.

No point in getting so upset over it, especially you Porygon, anyone who disagrees with you in this thread you have gone full aggro on. Calm down.

Three shots to kill a T70? In that case, I'll give in to you guys' argument here. I think that the range change is reasonable.

If I remember correctly, the second shrek shot would leave the T70 very damage (about 10.15% hp left). I think its fine that way, shreks are always a soft counter to armor, and should be used as support.

I used to hate the T70, but given the tech sacrifices the Soviet player must make in 1v1 to get it, it isn't that OP. I still dislike its range though

I used to hate the T70, but given the tech sacrifices the Soviet player must make in 1v1 to get it, it isn't that OP. I still dislike its range though

That was my point too... I'm able to steamroll with the thing when I get it out, but you'd better do some massive destruction and gain map control quickly, because you'll be in for a world of hurt once he gets that P4 out. It's a risky strategy and the only reason to go T3 anyway. But I can live with a range nerf if the thing can take 3 shrek hits.

Keep in mind an increase to the PAKs accuracy will not only improve performance vs. tanks but infantry as well.

If you want the T70 to be hit more often, you likely mean to increase its target size.

But can't you set it to be more accurate against armour...

Oh that's right, you don't have damage tables anymore

But can't you set it to be more accurate against armour...

Oh that's right, you don't have damage tables anymore

Target Tables. They were VERY useful, but they can also complicate the game further. In a game like starcraft, where there's really just a couple of "target types" (armor, bio, building) this is fine. In a game like CoH, adding cover, accuracy and armor can cause a whole lot of factors.

As much as people love vCoH, myself included, it was a pain to balance. Just look at how many unofficial balance mods there were. I can recall at least three different approaches, during those 7 years, with which balance was approached (Standard, BattleTest, and Beta for 2.602).

Keep in mind an increase to the PAKs accuracy will not only improve performance vs. tanks but infantry as well.

If you want the T70 to be hit more often, you likely mean to increase its target size.

This says a lot. I think the reason why the pak is missing it such a lot is because it is fast AND small. Thus +- 2x reduced accuracy vs it cos it moves fast and presents a small target. Schreks usually hit it at least, but as stated earlier it takes 3 hits to kill it.

Considering how fast the t70 kills pgrens and its ability to kite them cos its range is longer plus schreks only fire when stationary, a slight range nerf will prolly be warranted. T70 also has somewhat better pathing than larger tanks, so in the hands of a skilled opponent killing it using only schreks is a bitch. Getting two schrek squads at that time in the game will leave you very vulnerable in other areas since schrek squads are less good vs infantry. That is to say if you even have the 240, yes 240 munitions for this, not to mention a lot of manpower.

The problem that now presents itself is if you increase its target size, it will also be more likely to get hit by tanks and everything else. We don't neccesarily want that because that affects its utitlity later in the game also. The crux point is right where it comes out and the other player only has t1 and t2 to deal with it for a couple of minutes. These minutes can often be game ending (or at least game changing).

The pak should be looked at from a much wider perspective as its role is more spread out throughout the duration of the game. I dont think a slight accuracy buff is out of the question, since it doesnt really do much at all vs infantry, will it be too effective vs inf if its accuracy is increased slightly? I don't know, but I don't think so. Also the Zis should perhaps receive same buff to be fair?

Another problem with t70's is that they can chase down and kill infantry that is retreating and you can lose numerous squads if you are not careful. It can even run amock in your base if you dont have schrek squads. Now im not saying it is completely OP, it just needs some small tweaking...

All the proposed nerfs to the T70 are SLIGHT ones. It will definitely still be useful and deadly, it must just be counterable if a german player prepared well for it ie. got a pak.

This says a lot. I think the reason why the pak is missing it such a lot is because it is fast AND small. Thus +- 2x reduced accuracy vs it cos it moves fast and presents a small target. Schreks usually hit it at least, but as stated earlier it takes 3 hits to kill it.

Considering how fast the t70 kills pgrens and its ability to kite them cos its range is longer plus schreks only fire when stationary, a slight range nerf will prolly be warranted. T70 also has somewhat better pathing than larger tanks, so in the hands of a skilled opponent killing it using only schreks is a bitch. Getting two schrek squads at that time in the game will leave you very vulnerable in other areas since schrek squads are less good vs infantry. That is to say if you even have the 240, yes 240 munitions for this, not to mention a lot of manpower.

The problem that now presents itself is if you increase its target size, it will also be more likely to get hit by tanks and everything else. We don't neccesarily want that because that affects its utitlity later in the game also. The crux point is right where it comes out and the other player only has t1 and t2 to deal with it for a couple of minutes. These minutes can often be game ending (or at least game changing).

The pak should be looked at from a much wider perspective as its role is more spread out throughout the duration of the game. I dont think a slight accuracy buff is out of the question, since it doesnt really do much at all vs infantry, will it be too effective vs inf if its accuracy is increased slightly? I don't know, but I don't think so. Also the Zis should perhaps receive same buff to be fair?

Another problem with t70's is that they can chase down and kill infantry that is retreating and you can lose numerous squads if you are not careful. It can even run amock in your base if you dont have schrek squads. Now im not saying it is completely OP, it just needs some small tweaking...

All the proposed nerfs to the T70 are SLIGHT ones. It will definitely still be useful and deadly, it must just be counterable if a german player prepared well for it ie. got a pak.

All of this sums up why the system in terms of units in VCoH is much better compared to the not so good situation of now where PaK's accuracy increase would improve it's performance against infantry...

In that case, except for strafe the game should never be patched IMO because of all of this. Most units do fill their niches fine atm.