Panzerfussiliers

2 BARs also have higher opportunity cost because of research requirement and Zooks. Rifles also have 5 men while Panzerfusiliers have 6, and bonus sight with the upgrade. As of right now you pay 30 munitions for each G43; all things considered it should be 40, or at least 35.
AT snare on Panzerfusiliers needs to be made a Faust ability, problem solved there.

Not really...If you want to compare weapon upgrades across faction you have to keep in mind some of the following facts:

Most (if not all) doctrinal weapon upgrades come at no cost...nothing special here.

Riflemen come with 5 m1 that are better than k98 (PF) at all ranges and riflemen are cheaper to buy, and have smaller size and are non doctrinal.

Osther G43 cost 22.5 per weapon and give access to interrogation and have better DPS, Ostheer ST44 is 25 per weapon while being superior and OKW ST44 upgrade is 30 per weapons and vastly superior.

Further more Relic usually gives a discount to weapon upgrades when the have to bought in bulk for instance airborne buy LMG for 60 a piece instead of 70 and Thompson again better than g43 at 22.5 a piece and they are also a 6 men squad...

Try to use Obers as standard Infantry, you won't be floating for much longer.

Obers aren´t supposed to be your standard infantry. The lack of snares or AT weaponry and relatively high cost makes them highly specialized AI infantry. You shouldn´t have more than two squads of them on the field anyway.

Obers aren´t supposed to be your standard infantry. The lack of snares or AT weaponry and relatively high cost makes them highly specialized AI infantry. You shouldn´t have more than two squads of them on the field anyway.

Exactly, Hector was saying you Panzerfusiliers are popular because Volks cannot fight late-game Infantry and Obers are not a solution because they're scarce.

Not really...If you want to compare weapon upgrades across faction you have to keep in mind some of the following facts:

Most (if not all) doctrinal weapon upgrades come at no cost...nothing special here.

Riflemen come with 5 m1 that are better than k98 (PF) at all ranges and riflemen are cheaper to buy, and have smaller size and are non doctrinal.

Osther G43 cost 22.5 per weapon and give access to interrogation and have better DPS, Ostheer ST44 is 25 per weapon while being superior and OKW ST44 upgrade is 30 per weapons and vastly superior.

Further more Relic usually gives a discount to weapon upgrades when the have to bought in bulk for instance airborne buy LMG for 60 a piece instead of 70 and Thompson again better than g43 at 22.5 a piece and they are also a 6 men squad...

G43 for Ost promotes mobile shooting and is on a squad that isn't durable, hence the price. Rifles BARs are pretty much souped up G43s when you factor in shooting on the move and the DPS; BARs are 60 muni each compared to 22.5 G43s for Ost. The G43 on Fusiliers, by extension, should be more expensive than the G43 on Grens or Panzgrens, yet cheaper than BARs, because Fusiliers are more durable than both Gren types, the Fusilier upgrade has no opportunity cost unlike both Grens with Shreks/MG42s, and lastly the Panzerfusiliers upgrade gives them bonus sight range.

Bars, LMG42 are both stock weapons and come with tech cost.

G43 are doctrinal and do not come with tech so you are comparing different things...

OKW G43 of fusilier come with sight but Ostheer G43 comes with battlefield intelligence via interrogation.

OKW G43 are currently more 33% expensive than Ostheer one although they have lower DPS and the same price as the far superior OKW ST44 yet you propose to make them even more expensive making them one of least cost effective weapon upgrade in the game...

Bars, LMG42 are both stock weapons and come with tech cost.

G43 are doctrinal and do not come with tech so you are comparing different things...

OKW G43 of fusilier come with sight but Ostheer G43 comes with battlefield intelligence via interrogation.

OKW G43 are currently more 33% expensive than Ostheer one and the same price as the far superior OKW ST44 yet you propose to make them even more expensive making them one of least cost effective weapon upgrade in the game...

It's not like STGs and LMG34 are underpriced...

Tech cost influences price of weapon upgrades? If this was true Zooks and BARs would be 50 munitions, and DP-28 would be more expensive because it doesn't require tech.

In any case, Panzerfusiliers upgrade costs more per G43 because the squad is more durable, the upgrade has no competition, and increased vision range is superior to a gimmicky active ability any day of the week. Allied AOE is balanced around 4 and 5 man squads; a six man squad Axis able to fire on move with good DPS and scout farther ahead is highly resistant to AOE of Allied factions, and requires greater resources to counter discounting HMGs.

35 muni per G43 plus 10 muni for extra sight is a fair price for the upgrade. Make snare viable and increase cost to 300 MP with 26 MP reinforce (I know math doesn't add up, 300 MP should be 25 mp reinforce, but it doesn't have to add up with OKW because Sturms). Buffing of snare to Faust level would be a net buff imo.

It's not like STGs and LMG34 are underpriced...

You want to generally discus under-priced weapons? Try the Thompson at 22.5 a piece, the PPsh at 13.3 a piece or the PTRS at 25 a piece or the Boys for 10 manpower a piece...

Tech cost influences price of weapon upgrades? If this was true Zooks and BARs would be 50 munitions, and DP-28 would be more expensive because it doesn't require tech.

In any case, Panzerfusiliers upgrade costs more per G43 because the squad is more durable, the upgrade has no competition, and increased vision range is superior to a gimmicky active ability any day of the week. Allied AOE is balanced around 4 and 5 man squads; a six man squad Axis able to fire on move with good DPS and scout farther ahead is highly resistant to AOE of Allied factions, and requires greater resources to counter discounting HMGs.

35 muni per G43 plus 10 muni for extra sight is a fair price for the upgrade. Make snare viable and increase cost to 300 MP with 26 MP reinforce (I know math doesn't add up, 300 MP should be 25 mp reinforce, but it doesn't have to add up with OKW because Sturms). Buffing of snare to Faust level would be a net buff imo.

Then make their received accuracy the same as allied infantry. Allow them to dual equip g43 packages for 200 munitions like allied m1919s. Why not? I mean we need to nerf their costs and weapons to allied level. Seeing as they cost the same, bring panzerfussilier durability to allied level as well. Its only fair. *gasp, but wait, that would mean acknowledging that its not as good and you'd have to buff an axis unit. Oh how awful.

Tech cost influences price of weapon upgrades?

That is not what I wrote. What I wrote is that you should compare stock weapons like bars and LMG34 with doctrinal weapon upgrades like the G43.

In any case, Panzerfusiliers upgrade costs more per G43 because the squad is more durable,...

Relic seem to disagree with you. Airborne are more durable than Riflemen or R.E. but their LMG is 14% cheaper.

a six man squad Axis able to fire on move with good DPS...

Again firing on the move is something airborne can do with their LMG while other units can not and the even get a great ability...

35 muni per G43 plus 10 muni for extra sight is a fair price for the upgrade

No it is not a total of 115 munition for the upgrade is over the top when airborne can get 4 Thompson for 90 or conscripts can get 3 PPsh for 40...

Airbornes six man durability is less than Panzerfusilers six men because all of Axis factions have AOE designed for large squads. (I'm not saying Allied AOE is bad.)

More expensive infantry units generally get discounted upgrades, culminating in Obers 60 muni MG34. Assuming no cost increase, Fusiliers G43 upgrade therefore should be a hair cheaper than double bars, like I've been saying.

^ at vet 0 I'd be down for received accuracy decrease if it meant making them pricier and harder to spam.

Oh yeah? And so would I, If it meant durability and firepower was roughly equal to allied baseline inf. For around the same price.

Airbornes six man durability is less than Panzerfusilers six men because all of Axis factions have AOE designed for large squads. (I'm not saying Allied AOE is bad.)

What does AOE weapon have to do with small arm fire?

More expensive infantry units generally get discounted upgrades, culminating in Obers 60 muni MG34.

Relic seems to disagree with since the give 6 men conscripts with 240 price tag 3 PPsh for 40 munition at 13.3 mu a piece.

Assuming no cost increase, Fusiliers G43 upgrade therefore should be a hair cheaper than double bars, like I've been saying.

No it should not STOP comparing BARS a stock upgrade with doctrinal upgrade.
If you want a unit close to Fusilier to compare with, compare them with the doctrinal Ppsh conscripts and not the mainline infantry like riflemen having a stock upgrade.

You want to generally discus under-priced weapons? Try the Thompson at 22.5 a piece, the PPsh at 13.3 a piece or the PTRS at 25 a piece or the Boys for 10 manpower a piece...

You mean thompsons and ppsh which are useless over 10 range? Or PTRSes which are worse than OST jaeger upgrade?

I want to discuss weapon which are comparable, like LMG34 and double 1919 or LMG42 or DP28. If you compare DPS you will clearly see than LMG32 is underpriced.

If the Lmg34 is under-priced the Obers without it are overpriced...

If the Lmg34 is under-priced the Obers without it are overpriced...

Obers without LMG have DPS of LMG Grens, but 370MP would be fair.

If the Lmg34 is under-priced the Obers without it are overpriced...

It's been like that months yet hasn't been rectified.

Obers are overpriced at 400 MP.

Their LMG34 upgrade is underpriced at 60 muni like an LMG42 but 50% better DPS (and the gunner doesn't have to lie on the ground to fire it and fires on the move at 75% accuracy...).

The answer is clearly to fix up these aspects.

obers should not become cheaper. They are fine at 400 mp.

What does AOE weapon have to do with small arm fire?


Relic seems to disagree with since the give 6 men conscripts with 240 price tag 3 PPsh for 40 munition at 13.3 mu a piece.


No it should not STOP comparing BARS a stock upgrade with doctrinal upgrade.
If you want a unit close to Fusilier to compare with, compare them with the doctrinal Ppsh conscripts and not the mainline infantry like riflemen having a stock upgrade.

It has to do with the overall durability of a unit. In Relics reasoning, larger squads are more survivable: see their belief that Conscripts are durable.

Stating that a particular cheap squad gets a cheap upgrade does not disprove the claim that expensive squads usually get upgrades that over perform for munitions cost. Regardless, PPSH package reduces long range dps and alpha damage of 16x6, making it in fact a side grade and not an upgrade.

You haven't yet proven why you can't compare doctrinal upgrades to nondoctrinal ones but I'll bite: M1919s are doctrinal and 70 muni a piece even though they perform identical to MG42s. They cost 10 muni more because they come on a 280 MP 5 man squad with good RA and grenades, and because you get two. Using the logic you want me to follow Fusilier G43s should cost drastically more than Grenadier G43s because Fusiliers are 50 MP more, have two extra men, flares, and you get 3 G43s compared to 2. So, you want Panzerfusiliers G43 upgrade to be 35 each, plus 10 for vision.

Edit: for the record I actually think obers could be like 360 MP, with upgrade costing 75.

It has to do with the overall durability of a unit. In Relics reasoning, larger squads are more survivable:...

More entities (at same HP) make squad more survivable but lets leave AOE weapon out of this since they are irrelevant.

(PPSH) making it in fact a side grade and not an upgrade.

Is currently one of the most cost efficient upgrade in the game...

You haven't yet proven why you can't compare doctrinal upgrades to nondoctrinal ones but I'll bite: M1919s are doctrinal and 70 muni a piece even though they perform identical to MG42s.

You start good but then you go and compare the doctrinal M1919s with stock LMG42...

Using the logic you want me to follow Fusilier G43s should cost drastically more than Grenadier G43s because...

It already 33% more expensive although it is 8.8 less effective. so its actually around 40% more expensive at the price of 35 it would be 55% more expensive and more 64% taking into account the difference in DPS.

It would also be extremely more expensive than the Ostheer ST44 at 25 MU...

If you compare the DPS of squad you can get a better picture:

(m1_garand_rifle_rifleman_mp)x5---------33.81 21.67 14.03 9.89 8.37
(panzerfusilier_kar_98k_rifle_mp)x6-----22.58 18.45 15.46 12.53 11.08
(panzerfusilier_g43)x3+3-----------------38.63 29.49 18.31 13.35 11.52