British Base Howi's

I realise it isn't a historical simulation however the reason detre behind the British adoption of an 88mm rather than the 105s preferred by most other western Forces might give a hint as to the direction this could go.

Larger numbers of lower calibre artillery was preferred for their ability to suppress enemy troops, also for volume massed fire against armoured formations. Indeed artillery was the prime cause of tank kills, both from indirect fire and the 25pdrs added role of anti-tank gun with a supercharged red powder bag ( direct fire, nowt to do with the COH range increase).

Also British doctrine put a heavy emphasis on smoke when assaulting an enemy position. Creeping barrages ( for which the 25pdr was considered a bit heavy) of HE then smoke so the infantry could get close in and personal.

Very information heavy site for arms geeks here...

http://nigelef.tripod.com/RAorg.htm

Both NGFS and inland fires called for timely weight of accurate fire. Now clearly the current ability is neither timely, weighty nor accurate. I don't claim to be a good player, although I do have a 100% win rate ( at least until I play my second game), so am just looking to give some historical foundation on which those who know the game mechanics more intimately could comment...

Thanks for this! I look forward to reading the article when I get the time.

From my somewhat limited knowledge of WW2 artillery, I'm led to believe that CoH2 doesn't really represent artillery very well. A small example of this is that the US were pretty damned good with their artillery - to the point where rocket arty wasn't a priority because they could get the same effect with time on target barrages. Same applies to the brits.

I would like to see all gun artillery buffed a bit. Something like adding tank criticals to the shells, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.

for its price it is hardly any where near the worst indirect fire.

coming second to the sexton is nothing to be proud of though.

Actually I've messed up the url slightly....

http://nigelef.tripod.com/directory.htm would be a better point to jump in.

To be fair I've yet to see a wargame which models artillery accurately. Simple enough to do but sitting a lonely single company of German troops in the middle of a huge map whilst it gets pounded for hours or days by Soviet arty doesn't provide much in the way of gameplay.

Assuming a medium sized 1v1 map is roughly 300 by 300, and the opposition occupies about half of it, an impromtu fire mission designed to demoralise the enemy would consist of about 6000 rds over 15 minutes from a 25pdr battery. Not many volks or pios left after that...

A single battery fired over 40,000 rounds in 24 hours during the crossing of the Rhine.

In short it would potentially be a dull game if arty was modelled correctly.

for its price it is hardly any where near the worst indirect fire.

It's utility equals 0. Multiplying something with 0 is still 0.

The shells should land faster and be more accurate. You're spending muni on both the upgrade and the barrage, it should be actually usage, especially since apart from the 250+ munition offmaps the Brit's indirect fire sucks.

For instance, if I use it on a garrison, I expect the shells to start landing on it 3-4 seconds later so that it actually helps clearing the place out. Not 10 seconds later and landing in the neightbor's backyard.

When playing UKF I veto any maps that require indirect fire to be successful, like the (otherwise garbage map anyway) Semois variants. This is ironic since Relic's own in-game description of the faction emphasises their indirect fire...

When playing UKF I veto any maps that require indirect fire to be successful, like the (otherwise garbage map anyway) Semois variants. This is ironic since Relic's own in-game description of the faction emphasises their indirect fire...

They do have lots of indirect fire, whenever on their base, emplacements or doctrines; the problem is that they don't have rocket artillery, which in this game is the absolute king of indirect fire. Every faction has some sort of mobile death-dealer, while the brits have to make do with mediocre-at-best lame ducks like the base howies, Sexton and BOFORs barrage.

They do have lots of indirect fire, whenever on their base, emplacements or doctrines; the problem is that they don't have rocket artillery, which in this game is the absolute king of indirect fire. Every faction has some sort of mobile death-dealer, while the brits have to make do with mediocre-at-best lame ducks like the base howies, Sexton and BOFORs barrage.

the bofors is quite good but as a suppression and harassment tool; not really as artillery. it will destroy buildings and clear houses but it takes a while.

A big part of the problem is that after the infantry throws the flare, red smokes just sits there for >10 seconds. This gives the enemy plenty of time to notice it and move their troops.

This being actualy the only problem.

Yep... Brit base arty is horrible. The fire rate is very low and the accuracy is poor

My biggest problem with the base howitzers is not that they suck, it's that you need to get a basic infantry squad within close range of whatever position you want to fire at. This works completely against the way you actually want to use it - saturate an enemy defense area before or just as you attack, or for counter-battery fire. Even if they were good you wouldn't be able to call them in. Imagine if in WW1 soldiers had to reach the enemy trenches before they could call in artillery on them, that's how bad this ability is.

Brits have no indirect fire and it's a crippling weakness if you need it to win the map and the opponent is not incompetent.

This being actualy the only problem.

So damage, rate of fire and accuracy are irrelevant? XD

So damage, rate of fire and accuracy are irrelevant? XD

Not if you main Axis

I've been watching a few prop 1v1 replays featuring Brit players. Ie. Jove

You know how many flares I've seen used? Zero.

A big part of the problem is that after the infantry throws the flare, red smokes just sits there for >10 seconds. This gives the enemy plenty of time to notice it and move their troops.

Exactly.

Bringing the changes I implemented into my mod to this topic on my ideas on how to improve the 25pdr.

British HQ

Face Base HQ Howitzers
-Allows the British to face their 25pdrs per-emptively when they come online to allow for better reaction when Tommy flares or certain abilities involving the 25pdr are activated.

Sniper

-Artillery flare range increased from 30 to 45.

Infantry Section Flare

-Artillery flare range increased from 20 to 35

25pdrs

-Reload from 4.7 to 2.3.
-AOE distance damage changed from 1/0.15/0.05 to 1/0.25/0.1

Shells after the first salvo now arrive more quickly at the target, 25pdrs do more damage to units not directly hit by shells, artillery is easier to use as the flares are not incredibly short-ranged and now the British player can preemptively fact their 25pounders at the target position in preparation for barrage. Maybe a scatter reduction is also needed due to their position in the British base.

Considering how bad the base howitzer is, losing out on Medics on your Infantry sections just makes it even less viable.

The 25 Pounders need a pretty huge buff to scatter and/or accuracy.

Considering how bad the base howitzer is, losing out on Medics on your Infantry sections just makes it even less viable.

The 25 Pounders need a pretty huge buff to scatter and/or accuracy.

The vision buff is quite good to have on one IS

The vision buff is quite good to have on one IS

the vision is nice but it doesn't solve the british lack of artillery.

Staring the enemy to death doesn't really work.

"Staring the enemy to death doesn't really work."

Lol,Quite.

Maybe in keeping with the historical British doctine the 25pdrs could fire a lighter shell than equivalent off or on map arty, but more numerous? One of the historical advantages of a lower calibre was simply that you had more guns which were capable of a higher rate of fire available. Each infantry division would pack 72 of the blighters, compared to at most 36 ( more generally 24) higher calibre weapons in any equivalent western Army.

Might there be a synergy possible with the ( currently) useless Bren carrier and craters? For instance when assaulting a strategic point in mid to late game a barrage which suppresses as much as kills, then smoke, followed by infantry riding in UCs which could take advantage of the craters and the British Infantry's cover bonusses?

Again I make no claims as to balance, just an idea which would sit well historically and be rather fun to pull off.

Something else in keeping with historical fact would be to make the base 25pdrs capable of AT or AI direct fire ( possibly doctrine specific). I can think offhand of several German attacks on batteries which were beaten off with heavy losses.