defensive doctrin

currently i am playing a lot with the sov. def. doctrin, but it seems a bit strange.

dshk penetration seems to suck a lot. AP rounds are crap compared to MG42 ones. (do they actually work..?)

the tanktraps are also a bit of a joke aswell, because USF has non doctrinal ones at 0 CP.

i would also love to see the 45mm AT at 1CP tbh.

what are your opinions on it?

Its very weak doctrine, one of the weakest in SU.

Dshk AP rounds are just *3 penetration, and its like 13.5/9/4.5 with them, if I remember correctly. Mg-42 AP rounds are +9 penetration, so it will be 11.2/10.8/10.4, and double damage. Dshk still have better damage, but longer burst and better far penetration from Mg-42 make the difference.

M-42 is strange, low price, very low penetration, low damage, it is okeish vs halftracks and even infantry, but I would gladly spend some more MP, like 40-60, for penetration buff, something like 120/100/80.

Tanktraps are kinda useless - map dependent and you need a lot of time to build them like tank blocker, its very rare tool. The are good like small green cover, common US tactic, but SU already have sandbags on conscripts.

This commander really needs an overhaul. I think tank traps and AI mines should be combined into one ability that comes at 0CP, then they could add something else, maybe Incendiary Artillery - that would fit pretty well. The DshK should come at 1CP and its ability needs a slight buff. The M-42 needs higher penetration, and it could also come at 1CP.
Then you'd have a fairly decent commander that could work well with a T1 build.

USF can also build it straight away with REs... dont see the point why the are locked behind CPs.

They should add posibility to build soviet bunkers (they are now at base as defence stuctures) at this doctrine and maybe a KV-2 as call in. It needs an overhaul for sure, now it's the weakest commander.

This commander really needs an overhaul. I think tank traps and AI mines should be combined into one ability that comes at 0CP, then they could add something else, maybe Incendiary Artillery - that would fit pretty well. The DshK should come at 1CP and its ability needs a slight buff. The M-42 needs higher penetration, and it could also come at 1CP.
Then you'd have a fairly decent commander that could work well with a T1 build.

thats a very nice idea!

but my main issue is, that you unlock ALL 5 abilities at 2CP. at first you are stocking up manpower, then you can call in so much stuff at once. some CP changes are really needed

Its a good doctrine if you like to play with advanced resources, but thats just on custom games so dont feel like taking part of balance issues

Just CP changes will not make it competitive doctrine.

USF can also build it straight away with REs... dont see the point why the are locked behind CPs.

that's the one of two useful things can be made by RE. RE itself is really bad now.

Combine Tank traps with AI mines - 0CP
Add KV2.
Buff M42 (bit weaker than ZiS, but with better RoF and maybe AT/HE rounds).

I reworked this doctrine a while back with my own ideas:

Show Spoiler

No more Dushka because of bunkers, no more M-42 because of TM-44, and the heavy mortar ain't that good anyway.

This doc need rework.

I reworked this doctrine a while back with my own ideas:

Show Spoiler

No more Dushka because of bunkers, no more M-42 because of TM-44, and the heavy mortar ain't that good anyway.

I'm assuming the TM-44 will be a Teller mine clone? Getting all that stuff at 0CP could be a bit strong, it also makes them very similar to Ostheer. The FHQ fits well, though. Cheap double LMGs on cheap mainline infantry could lead so some serious spam, I think a a single DP-28 that's available earlier would be better. The KV-1 is pretty bad at the moment, but if it gets a buff it would definitely be nice to see it in other commanders. The IL-2 loiter is also pretty nice, although it doesn't fit the 'defensive' theme so much.

I really like this concept - great work! Although it's a bit of a shame that it doesn't incorporate the DShK and M-42. They're obviously not great at the moment, but I'd really like to see them buffed and available in more commanders.

both the SO and Ostheer doctrinal tank traps should be moved to CP 0-1

I'm assuming the TM-44 will be a Teller mine clone? Getting all that stuff at 0CP could be a bit strong, it also makes them very similar to Ostheer. The FHQ fits well, though. Cheap double LMGs on cheap mainline infantry could lead so some serious spam, I think a a single DP-28 that's available earlier would be better. The KV-1 is pretty bad at the moment, but if it gets a buff it would definitely be nice to see it in other commanders. The IL-2 loiter is also pretty nice, although it doesn't fit the 'defensive' theme so much.

I really like this concept - great work! Although it's a bit of a shame that it doesn't incorporate the DShK and M-42. They're obviously not great at the moment, but I'd really like to see them buffed and available in more commanders.

- Yeah, TM-44 will be Teller mine clone. Maybe make it 70 munitions to place.

- Remember, DP-28s are the weakest LMGs in the game. Plus, they come at 5 CP, much later than other LMGs.

- I was thinking the IL-2 loiter could serve as way to defend an area. It could be replaced by an 2 CP DShK I suppose.

On second thought, defenses at 0CP should be alright. I think 60-70 munitions is a good price for a Soviet AT mine, because they usually have more munitions to spare than Ostheer. Making them cheaper could shut down Axis light vehicles completely. USF gets MG bunkers as well, and they're not that hard to deal with as Axis.

I know DPs are weak, but they only cost 75 munitions, at least on Guards. If you give them to a squad that's cheap to build and reinforce, it would be fairly easy to get a huge LMG blob of doom that can build cover, sprint, clear garrisons and snare vehicles. But I guess this just needs to be tested in game!

Now that loitering planes can't spot for themselves any more, it might be nice to make some kind of "Sector Air Defense" ability: Targeted owned sector will be revealed by flares, two IL-2 will loiter and attack enemy units in that sector for a while.

This commander really needs an overhaul. I think tank traps and AI mines should be combined into one ability that comes at 0CP, then they could add something else, maybe Incendiary Artillery - that would fit pretty well. The DshK should come at 1CP and its ability needs a slight buff. The M-42 needs higher penetration, and it could also come at 1CP.
Then you'd have a fairly decent commander that could work well with a T1 build.

Booby Trap Territory would be great add to the doctrine thematically.

1 CP is kind of early for the M-42 as you need to allow some window of usability for Axis light vehicles before a hard counter is available. DSHK maybe... you can argue that MG34 comes at 1 CP (although it's not nearly as good damage wise so DSHK might be better at 2 CP as well). The AP Rounds could use a slight buff I agree since they are a joke compared to Incendiary Rounds while also being more expensive if I'm not mistaken.

One could argue that a Raketenwerfer can come even earlier. Also, the M-42 deals only 80 damage per hit, so it needs 3 hits on a Kübelwagen or 222 and 4 on a 251. It does reload faster than other AT guns, though. I can understand where you're coming from - 2CP would also be alright, I guess.

The DShK should come at 1CP, though. It can be fairly strong, but at 300MP it's also the most expensive HMG in the game, so you can't really spam it.
Both AP abilities cost 15 munitions, but the one the MG42 has is much, much better. It doubles damage (to 8) and multiplies penetration by NINE (19.8/16.2/12.6), while the DShK only gets triple penetration (13.5/9/4.5). It does have higher stock damage (10), but the MG42's rate of fire is twice as high. I would recommend a higher penetration modifier for the DShK's ability, that way it would be more reliable against vehicles without completely obliterating infantry. It could also be locked behind Vet 1 in that case - or the buff to the AP rounds could come at Vet 1 - so that the DShK doesn't completely shut down light vehicles when it comes out.

They should add posibility to build soviet bunkers (they are now at base as defence stuctures) at this doctrine and maybe a KV-2 as call in. It needs an overhaul for sure, now it's the weakest commander.

sounds like a good suggestion