Why can USF inf pickup dual upgrades?

Debatable.

Not really lmg42 is better than bar period. Snipes retreating infantry from long distance, much more potential to wipe allied squads. Bars only benefit is it can fire on the move which makes sense because rifles need to get into medium range, how ever it dosent snipe well from long distance and I find that it hardly ever wipes retreating axis squads with out multiple rifles each with double bars. Sames with 1919 does great dmg and dps overall but dosen't have the great long distance snipe/wipe potential.

Not really lmg42 is better than bar period. Snipes retreating infantry from long distance, much more potential to wipe allied squads. Bars only benefit is it can fire on the move which makes sense because rifles need to get into medium range, how ever it dosent snipe well from long distance and I find that it hardly ever wipes retreating axis squads with out multiple rifles each with double bars. Sames with 1919 does great dmg and dps overall but dosen't have the great long distance snipe/wipe potential.

You can get 2 and equip engineer squads with them and fires on the move which is actually better for chasing down retreating squads.

Double zooks, bars, G43, FG42 etc are fine.

But honestly, double LMGs are killing this game.
There should be limit for 1 LMG per squad.
It applies mostly to 1919.
But other LMGs should be adjusted to this, I mean, lower LMG34 DPS so it's just a bit better than 1919.
Keep double DP28 on Guards or make it 1 but better.
Lower DPS on Paras'1919 or give them one bit better than doctrinal.

The only way to get 2 of them on Rifles/Grens etc would be by picking it from the ground.

Without knowing what support weapons and vehicles you include in your build i would say 6 infantry squads seems a little light on if you are facing an opponent focusing heavily on lmg infantry.

Hmm ... dont know. Which support weapons? MG34 which will be almost instantly dead under focus fire of LMG squads (not to mention that only 2 comms have it), or IGs which is nothing more but soft conter?

Or even more, if you go for IGs spam, sooner or later they will be destroyed by Prist\Caliope, leaving you harmless.

Hmm ... dont know. Which support weapons? MG34 which will be almost instantly dead under focus fire of LMG squads (not to mention that only 2 comms have it), or IGs which is nothing more but soft conter?

Or even more, if you go for IGs spam, sooner or later they will be destroyed by Prist\Caliope, leaving you harmless.

Well when I spot a blob coming and I have an mg I rush volks forward into the blob to screen for the mg and obers in the back to pick off those pesky rifles. Without mg34s I have 2 fusiliers/jaegars with my obers or just more volks to rush in close against the blob whilst obers just lmg them down. Or I sit in cover and focus fire one at a time along with other possible actions not mentioned here.

I'm more of a do than say person ;P I don't really use ISGs as I don't usually have any attention to spare to them sometimes I make one and watch it vet up

Hmm ... dont know. Which support weapons? MG34 which will be almost instantly dead under focus fire of LMG squads (not to mention that only 2 comms have it), or IGs which is nothing more but soft conter?

Or even more, if you go for IGs spam, sooner or later they will be destroyed by Prist\Caliope, leaving you harmless.

lone MG is a dead MG. Volks can build green defenses and tank/do damage.

If the enemy has time to get a calliope/priest, you have fuel to build a tank to flank it.

Stuka to squadwipe
P2 can kite/walk straight into infantry blob (if they have nothing but lmg since you think it's an issue)
P4 takes no damage from light arms.

IG spam... no one is telling you to be a noob and rely on spam tactics to win. 6 riflemen squads = 1680 MP and 1919 if you want double on all 6 squads = 840 muni....
1 ISG, 1 mg34 (if you have it), 2-3 volks behind cover, 1 obers (upgraded) can handle this no problem.

MG34 is doctrinal, 1919 is doctrinal. there are soooo many counters to USF blobbing and MP bleed from sustaining that large of a size. Flaktrak, p2, p4, Stuka... stop relying on blobs to win. Stop expecting your units to last all game "IGs spam, sooner or later they will be destroyed by Priest/Calliope"

Do you want all your units to be godly and have utility throughout the entire game?
Units have counters, use them. Micro, don't blob.

Give demo charges to all engineers to counter blob. I don't mind because I don't think most players will even use them because they just resort to blobbing instead of foresight and baiting.

...

Well, since x2 LMG rifles are mostly like Obersts in terms of AI, they simply could focus your AI squads aswell, and due to fact that both falls\obersts\jaegers (except for fusiliers) have 4 men squads, he will put down you much quicker and you usually wont do enough damage to them to let volks\pios\anyone else to finish them off, after you retreated your AI units.

And MG always can be smoked\focused and later on be killed by Prist\Caliope.

...

You are imagening situation where OKW already have at least 2 HQs builded + some sort of armor, which is hardly possible until like ~12-13 mins of the game. I only cant get one thing, why in your excample USF player dont have anything but rifles?

I'm not saying that rifles can take off tanks, but inf - for sure. And you cant really compare MG34 to Rifle LMG, simply because first one is basically core unit placed in 2 commanders, which is design fail. Even rifles with bars (and without bars aswell) can deliver a huge punch to OKW, if there are no obers runing around.

While MG34 is usually "must have", LMGs just a thing, which makes your rifles even better against OKW.

Also if USF player isn't complete idiot, he will go for Captain + AT gun. It will allow you to deny both Flak AND P2 without any single problem.

Sure in 4v4 it maybe much more easy to handle LMG blobs, because of the map size and fact that there are always teammate around and your front line is MUCH smaller then in 2v2. Go to 2v2 and try to counter LMG blobs here, its such pain in the ass that its not even funny. Also about flanking caliope\prist, its totally depends on map, flanking\rushing is not always possible, so you cant say "hurr flank it, problem solved".

And before you say "Well you could use Stuka and wipe things", ask yourself "Am I such a scrub to blob all my LMG rifles in one place", your stats are pretty good, so I think the answer will be "No". And here the problem. Good players, with LMG blobs, wont die to Stuka, they will avoid it most of the time simply by spreading around their rifles, but its still blob. Amount of afford from one player is significantly lower then from other, this is the main reason why everyone hates blobs.

We could go deeper in "theory crafting", but there is NOTHING OKW can do to LMG blobs, without proper answer from USF players. Its not like Ost vs USF where delayed PaK could mean pretty much GG for Ost.

Main question is why USF inf should be on pair with Obersoldaten in terms on DPS with x2 LMG. Is it so necessary?

Also I want to point it again - I'm not talking about countering idiots and their blobs, I'm talking about ppl who know how to play.

2x lmg on rifles mean 0 ammo for anything else. No grenades to flush out buildings, no smoke grenades to block mg34s. So hug buildings and get an mg34 if you are not going for jeagers.

Rush a p2 to clear out the flanks, support it with a panzerschrek squad and a rackettenwerfer.

Go light on the volks, instead invest more in units like jeagers, fussies and obers. Use mines and jeager/ober boobytraps; the latter especially demolishes riflemen squads.

Ever since the removal of defensive stance lmg riflespam is not impossible to deal with anymore. It just can't be countered with volksspam.

Well, since x2 LMG rifles are mostly like Obersts in terms of AI, they simply could focus your AI squads aswell, and due to fact that both falls\obersts\jaegers (except for fusiliers) have 4 men squads, he will put down you much quicker and you usually wont do enough damage to them to let volks\pios\anyone else to finish them off, after you retreated your AI units.

And MG always can be smoked\focused and later on be killed by Prist\Caliope.


You are imagening situation where OKW already have at least 2 HQs builded + some sort of armor, which is hardly possible until like ~12-13 mins of the game. I only cant get one thing, why in your excample USF player dont have anything but rifles?

I'm not saying that rifles can take off tanks, but inf - for sure. And you cant really compare MG34 to Rifle LMG, simply because first one is basically core unit placed in 2 commanders, which is design fail. Even rifles with bars (and without bars aswell) can deliver a huge punch to OKW, if there are no obers runing around.

While MG34 is usually "must have", LMGs just a thing, which makes your rifles even better against OKW.

Also if USF player isn't complete idiot, he will go for Captain + AT gun. It will allow you to deny both Flak AND P2 without any single problem.

Sure in 4v4 it maybe much more easy to handle LMG blobs, because of the map size and fact that there are always teammate around and your front line is MUCH smaller then in 2v2. Go to 2v2 and try to counter LMG blobs here, its such pain in the ass that its not even funny. Also about flanking caliope\prist, its totally depends on map, flanking\rushing is not always possible, so you cant say "hurr flank it, problem solved".

And before you say "Well you could use Stuka and wipe things", ask yourself "Am I such a scrub to blob all my LMG rifles in one place", your stats are pretty good, so I think the answer will be "No". And here the problem. Good players, with LMG blobs, wont die to Stuka, they will avoid it most of the time simply by spreading around their rifles, but its still blob. Amount of afford from one player is significantly lower then from other, this is the main reason why everyone hates blobs.

We could go deeper in "theory crafting", but there is NOTHING OKW can do to LMG blobs, without proper answer from USF players. Its not like Ost vs USF where delayed PaK could mean pretty much GG for Ost.

Main question is why USF inf should be on pair with Obersoldaten in terms on DPS with x2 LMG. Is it so necessary?

Okay so you're assuming the Allies player is good. Why don't we assume the Axis player is good too!

He can get out a luchs or flaktrak in 6 minutes... 1 captain can be kited easily by luchs and he cannot cover the entire map. Around that time, how much munitions has he saved up? If you're talking about a rifle+m1919 blob... with smoke... and captain for AT... that's 85 fuel. munitions could probably buy around 3 m1919s if none were spent for the duration of the match. Now they have to have more if they want to throw grenades and smoke in combat.

I think it's very unfeasible for a rifle+lmg blob to be successful early game. Sure, it's strong late game when they've saved up so much munitions to fully upgrade all their squads, grenades, and manueverability. By late game, you should also be having tanks and/or artillery.

I'm also not sure on the timing but lmgs are locked behind 3 cp? i'm not sure how long that is but up to that point, they should be lagging. they're saving munitions for lmg right? so, no grenades should be used... or used very sparingly. In that case, you should be bleeding their MP pretty badly. kubel can be used to back cap enemy territory while all their infantry is busy somewhere else. I really think OKW is in a good place. Maybe you're right about units being limited to 1 lmg. In that case just make everything identical then. DP 28, m1919, mg42, mg34, every other lmg i missed should be the same. Same damage, same profile, same everything.

However that's not the case and I'm sure Axis players don't want to see allied factions with OP lmgs. artillery is not meant to destroy blobs completely but if you hit even just half of them... that's huge MP bleed. If you happen to squad wipe even 1 squad, that's 140 munitions.

I could be wrong but we'll see with the upcoming patch?

Here just take this https://youtu.be/_RtvR2sm9PI

https://youtu.be/v2XoA-SNiCw

I agree with comm_ashh's idea, and here are my suggested new costs;

34 - 90 Muni
1919 - 90 Muni

42 - 60 Muni
Bar - 60 Muni
Vickers - 60 Muni

Double lmg 1919 is game-breaking.Period.

Watch GiaA,he only relies on them because he knows they are OP.Not complaining about his skills but honestly after your opponents gets double lmg on all 4 rifles you are done.

LMG rifles a-mowing your infantries while fast jacksons counters the rest- e-sports

Geez what happened ? did an OKW player actually lose a game this patch to USF ? That's just completely unacceptable, nerf them, nerf them now !!!!!

lmgs are fine. I think it would be cool if conscripts unlocked ppsh with t3 or t4. And all ppsh doctrinal abilities were replaced with single dp28 package for conscripts. Would be much cooler.

2x lmg on rifles mean 0 ammo for anything else. No grenades to flush out buildings, no smoke grenades to block mg34s. So hug buildings and get an mg34 if you are not going for jeagers.

Rush a p2 to clear out the flanks, support it with a panzerschrek squad and a rackettenwerfer.

Go light on the volks, instead invest more in units like jeagers, fussies and obers. Use mines and jeager/ober boobytraps; the latter especially demolishes riflemen squads.

Ever since the removal of defensive stance lmg riflespam is not impossible to deal with anymore. It just can't be countered with volksspam.

+1.

Axis players need to consider what allies loose when picking lmg doctrine.

No heavey tank.
No m10 spam.
No flame thrower.
No mines except m20.
No elite infantry or qc upgrades.
No demos.
No sandbags if Calliope doc.

As other have said heavy lmg investment means no smoke,no nades, no zooks, no at nades, no minesweeper, no m20 upgrade or mines.

I have not played lmg docs enough to say 100% if its balanced but axis players need to focus on what usf forgo for lmgs and use that to their advantage and stop just doing what they always do and then complain they get over run.

Also 2 isg are still quite potent. People just don't use them anymore because their not op.

Bump. This subject is still open for further discussions.

Bump. This subject is still open for further discussions.

Not really, unless you want to troll and be sent to .org ban gulag again.

The answer is "because they are designed and intended to, because they are prohibited proper combined arms" and there isn't anything more to it.

DPS of single BAR on vet0 rifleman - 10.479/5.656/2.950
DPS of single 1919 on vet0 rifleman - 6.174/8.805/9.041
DPS of single Mg-34 on vet0 ober - 11.561/16.802/16.833
DPS of single Stg-44 on vet0 ober - 26.152/12.649/4.274

Bouth are 60 ammo, you can't shoot while moving with Mg-34, but your DPS at far range is 5,7 times better than BAR's and still even better at close. You want mobile platform - you have 2 Stgs for 60mu, each of them have DPS of 2 BARs. What is Debatable?

You can shoot MG34 on the move, also its not strange that a dedicated AI squad with no AT capabilities locked in T4 performs better than mainline infan with AT capabilities

Post #4 Invised for trolling.

Snip

Yes, at that point there should be a calliope/sherman running around.


Needless to say, vet 3 zombies with a single m1919 outclass obers.