T-34/76 feels plain pathetic

Mini-Panther? No, you've misunderstood.

T70 can finish off rammed tanks, kill halftracks and just about everything else short of german T3.

Why would I get two units worth of 95+55 fuel, when I can get an SU-85 for 115 fuel that does the same more reliably and vs. stronger tanks?

Add onto that m5 halftrack is fairly good anti aircraft and AI and you can REINFORCE from it.

That's definitely what I am looking for around 8min, how could I have missed it!!!!

In fact Ram even counters the best armor(elefant, tiger, panther, you name it).
Hardly "useless" or "a death sentence" imho

Ram is a different beast alltogether and it won't stay that way in the game for long. I can't justify getting a shit tier tank with a god tier ability just for the sake of the ability. Ram should be a last resort mechanism when you go "oh shit, I went T3 instead of T4 like Relic clearly intended, welp I need to ram now".

The best course of action is buffing the T-34 vs. the PzIV because that way
a) you can justify getting T3
b) you get interesting tank battles instead of rock, paper, scissors like it is right now
c) Zis-26&Ram defense becomes staple soviet gameplay

That's all very worthwhile in my opionion.

Despite a lot of peoples attitude in saying it is a gloried battering ram everyone here knows the tank works, ram with support will kill most german tanks out there.

But why would I resort to the risky business of non-guarenteed ramming + support micro when a SU-85 does all of that with a single click of my mouse? Zis-26&Ram SHOULD be staple play, I agree but it isn't. And the reason for that is because the T-34 is too bad and the SU-85 too good and comes too early.

The problem a lot of people are having is the fact that it is very cost ineffective, you can skip t3 get t4 and only 20 fuel later get an awesome su-85, getting a t34-76 does not feel as rewarding as it should for spending 90 for t3 and 95 for the tank.

Let me put it like this why do very few german's buy the stug atm, it is not really a "bad" tank it is simply not as cost effective as the P4. yes the stug can kill other tanks with support but why bother when you feel much more rewarded with a P4

Exactly!

Its ironic that usually the proponents of a PIV equivalent T34, are the same ones who cry about the "need for asymmetric design", yet fail to realise that the PIVs stat superiority to T34s is exactly an element of that, owing to Ram.

Fair point, but Ram simply isn't compelling enough to get a T-34, as good as it is. T-34 needs to either come considerably earlier, which it can't because even the Stug comes hardly any later than the PzIV (and Ostheer on Pak-defense is just trolololol) or the SU-85 needs to come a lot later, which it can't because then you'll get rolled by Panthers. The only remaining option left *is* buffing the T-34 (and delaying the SU-85).

It's also pretty biting that german T3 has no real options, you can only get expensive tanks and pick the flavor of the gun. Stug in particular is so hilariously misplaced, can that thing penetrate anything that the PzIV can't?

@Raw:

1)Stug is earlier than PIV. Wtf you talking about.
2)T34 is earlier than PIV OR Stug. Wtf you talking about.

You can't BOTH buff T34 AND have it come out even earlier.
How would that be even remotely balanced.

Give some concrete numbers plz on changes you propose.

@Raw:

1)Stug is earlier than PIV. Wtf you talking about.

Marginally. The margin is way too small.

2)T34 is earlier than PIV OR Stug. Wtf you talking about.

I said it needs to come A LOT earlier as compared to right now to be worthwhile, but it can't because Ostheer literally has no counter to it that early in the game. Right now you build it, driver around for 2-3 minutes, force a couple of retreats and then ram the PzIV. The End.

You can't BOTH buff T34 AND have it come out even earlier.

I was iterating through available options, notice the use of conjunction OR and not AND.

I said it needs to come A LOT earlier as compared to right now to be worthwhile, but it can't because Ostheer literally has no counter to it that early in the game.

Which is exactly why it can't be buffed, or come earlier.
Which disqualifies arguments/suggestions to that effect.

Which is why I propose my "upgun" suggestion above.
It sidesteps the timing and buff problem, through an economic munition cost (not related to the MP/fuel asymmetry that already exists for armor timings) that solves the timing/buff issue.

Which is exactly why it can't be buffed, or come earlier.
Which disqualifies arguments/suggestions to that effect.

Which is why I propose my "upgun" suggestion above.
It sidesteps the timing and buff problem, through an economic munition cost (not related to the MP/fuel asymmetry that already exists for armor timings) that solves the timing/buff issue.

Yes, we agree with each other.

the 34 needs a better penetration, no question about that.
if the t70 was nerfed, which is needed, i think, that the t34 should be a better choice. i feel, that the biggest problem of russian t3 is the AT, i would personally take the t76 to t3 and make it an upgrade, you have to buy, before buying itself. oh, and buff the t76 AT kapabilites while removing the barrage. It would be like a PEmarder. This way, T4 would be dedicated AT.
Oh, and nerf the su85, its just too strong right now, too costeffetive!

barton had some nice ideas on sowjets:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/3672/remodeling-soviet-army

Glad to hear that.

I think a non-doctrinal "upgun" upgrade option on T34s to T34/85 maingun, at around a nominal 100 muni cost would "fix" timing, cost and stats for the Sov main battle tank.

Ill try to demonstrate and outline my reasoning:

1) T34s penetration is inadequate vs PIVs which invariably follow it onto the field. The upgun option makes T34s capable of upgrading to face that threat, without exhausting Sovs progression to Su85s, because it relies on Munitions, which are irrelevant to tiering.

2) Instead of adusting MP/Fuel costs (which would bring T34s on too early) or stats, which would push Ost towards the far later Panthers, due to PIVs subsequent vulnerability (primarily invested in Ram, but if changed, exascerbated by stat similarity), a Muni upgun option solves the T34s dilemma by allowing versatility in its function:
i) By maintaining its AI.
ii) Ram potential.
iii) Upguns symbiosis with other T34s, ZiS, AT nades and Guards Button.
With the upgun option the T34 is no longer relegated to simply Ram duty vs impending Ost Armor, but is viably able to support Sov with firepower in conjunction with other AT.
iv) Maintaining current armor/hp costs reciprocally mean it is still, fundamentally, vulnerable to PIVs, but in conjunction with Ram and a penetration capable maingun, can still, situationally hardcounter Ost armor, but can ALSO choose to operate as AT support, while still maintaining its fundamental (cost related) AI efficiency.

3) That T34/85s are:
i) Doctrinal
ii) Only purchaseable in pairs, at prohibitive cost (which also screws their timing)

is unnacceptable. This is simply nonfunctional design.
My suggestion kills two problems with one stone by both rectifying this doctrine/cost inefficiency, as well as T34s problems vs PIVs thatthey must withstand till SU85 support can arrive.

4) Sov, overall, has a terrible tendency to Muni float. I dont think anyone can disagree with this conclusion. I dont understand exactly WHY this invariably happens, but it does, repeatedly. Obvious reason is thatSov abilities/upgrades dont cost enough, but that is irrelevant here. Nonetheless, since we can agree Sov floats Muni, this provides an excellwnt opportunity to redirect that floatinto fixing the T34 AT, timing and cost issue.
Effectively adding a third problem killed, without hampering Sov unduly (because the Muni float IS providing, demonstrably, such a huge amount of slack rope/resources to be utilised), with the same stone.

3) That T34/85s are:
i) Doctrinal
ii) Only purchaseable in pairs, at prohibitive cost (which also screws their timing)

is unnacceptable. This is simply nonfunctional design.
My suggestion kills two problems with one stone by both rectifying this doctrine/cost inefficiency, as well as T34s problems vs PIVs thatthey must withstand till SU85 support can arrive.

the doctrinal version can still be two, but the manpower cost needs to come down to 600, maybe 550. keep the fuel cost where it is. this way the doctrine version is for "hey i have manpower and fuel and need AT support, but i dont have time for building t-34/76s and i dont have the munitions to upgrade them."

about munition floating for soviets: they need more ammo costs for early and/or mid game (the upgunned t-34 idea should do it for mid game, just add a ammo cost to the su-76 barrage for t4). late game with air support and general use of abilities i've found that i use all my munitions. but when i have 300-500 ammo for my leisure to spend in the first place, something is off before that point in the game.

Excellent suggestion Nullist, this would indeed solve alot of Soviets AT problems when you do not get t4, it would also allow for more versatile strats to be formulated instead of being forced to get 1 of the 2 types of AT they currently have.


I think a large problem to the muni float early to mid game comes from a sever lack of upgrades. all the upgrades so far are fuel/mp, molotovs, AT nade, healers.

Germans get the LMG42 for example something quite powerfull that makes you think, hmm should i spend this muni's for edge in the infantry war or do i need it in a little while.

One suggestion is giving the PPSH upgrade to all conscripts and replace the doctrinal ones with something else (like the g43's) for a muni's cost. something that stays in the game, not a activated ability(god knows soviets have to many of those)

I really love how T-34/76 & T-34/85 feel like in the Eastern Front model, T-34/76 feels like a Cromwell unarmored a little bit, and T-34/85 feels like a bigger PZIV...


off-topic.give cons DP28 after builds the T1 or T2? DP28 is vastly inferior to LMG42 but still is a decent damage upgrade for cons...

but not before the Hit the Dirt got tweaked, as all previous comment above, I can't agree more about giving the units in game more various upgrades to make this game have more diversity and fun.....

The best course of action is buffing the T-34

I agree with this. I think They should make it upgradeable to the t34/85, much like the up-gunned sherman in vcoh. Thus its damage vs a p4 will be better if upgraded at a cost. Also, I think the su85 does come a bit early and germans almost have to get an elefant to reliably counter them. The problem is they just camp (in numbers later) and own any advancing german armor before the german player even sees the su85.

I think a better solution is: they could just give the stug a long cone visibility ability like the su85 and elefant has. The stug is after all also a tank hunter and was similiar to the su85 historically. This will make it a choice for germans going p4 vs going stug. P4 gives more versitility(AI and rotating turret), stug gives line of sight and AT. Then when an su85 comes, sure it will be strong but at least you will see it when it shoots and your stug/pak will be able to fire back.

At the moment i see no reason to get the stug. Waiting for 20 more fuel for a p4/ostwind is a lot better. If there was a better reason to build it i might decide to get stug instead of p4. (like it gives line of sight so i can see and shoot an su85). It makes no sense that the su85 out ranges all german tanks exept the elefant. Sure they can buff the t34 with an up-gun but give the germans a way to deal with an su85 when it comes out. Then you fix two problems: soviets will have a choice between su85/t34 and germans will have a choice between p4/stug. Thus games will not be so predictable. Currently soviets kindof HAVE to get su85 and germans kindof HAVE to get p4.

I know the stug and p4 are both t3 but the soviets can build t4 straight away so you can compare the two.

note: I am not saying nerf the su85, just give the germans a way of at least shooting at it!

The only problem with delaying the SU-85 even longer means the P4 will have a much greater window to lock down the map, as we all know, going t 4 locks out any other option from t3.


A good solution is buffing the su-85 hp and rear armour and increasing its cost to about 150 fuel, but also raise the su 76 to about 70 ish fuel and buff its armour, and most importantly the Main gun so it when micro'd really well can take out/delay the p4's rampage right now you move it up, barrage and retreat back to base in case a pio looks at it funny and make the whole thing explode

The only problem with delaying the SU-85 even longer means the P4 will have a much greater window to lock down the map, as we all know, going t 4 locks out any other option from t3.


A good solution is buffing the su-85 hp and rear armour and increasing its cost to about 150 fuel, but also raise the su 76 to about 70 ish fuel and buff its armour, and most importantly the Main gun so it when micro'd really well can take out/delay the p4's rampage right now you move it up, barrage and retreat back to base in case a pio looks at it funny and make the whole thing explode

I didnt say the su85 should come out later, I said the germans dont have a viable counter to it when it comes out. Thus if you give the germans cone viz on the stug they can better deal with the su85 while making the stug at least worth buying for a reason instead of a p4. Honestly i think the biggest problem with the su85 is not its damage, its range is the real problem. Give the germans a way to see it and it will be ok. The stug's range should be the same as the su85 even if it doesnt do quite as much damage.

Buffing the su76 won't hurt, but remember their real strength is not AT but AI through barrage.

to summarize the general feeling in this thread:

The T34 needs a buff to armor and damage (I'd personally prefer this over penetration) why? if they had good penetration, T34 spam could become commonplace!

T34 also needs a nerf to the ram ability. Personally I think it should damage the t34 engine and take it down to about 20% health or so, but the ram should not disable the turret of the opposing Ost armor. Why should a t34 ram disable every tank in the game so easily including the tiger and the elephant? (a sad tank right now, along with the IS2)

if the turret wasn't disabled you would need to have conscripts or guards nearby the finish off the Ostheer tank,

anything that promotes combined arms play is a-ok in my book

No one would use ram if it not only crippled the t-34, but put it at a single penetrating hit from death - with the targeted vehicle still able to return fire.

Maybe ram should be like a disabling shot, stunning the enemy vehicle for 10 seconds or so, and immobilising the T-34 (neither tank receives destroyed main gun). That way it would be a button-esque ability if you do not choose a guards doctrine, yet if you did, it would not be an automatic free-win engagement, you'd have to bring support to take the opposing tank out whilst leaving your T-34 vulnerable.

The only problem with delaying the SU-85 even longer means the P4 will have a much greater window to lock down the map, as we all know, going t 4 locks out any other option from t3.


A good solution is buffing the su-85 hp and rear armour and increasing its cost to about 150 fuel, but also raise the su 76 to about 70 ish fuel and buff its armour, and most importantly the Main gun so it when micro'd really well can take out/delay the p4's rampage right now you move it up, barrage and retreat back to base in case a pio looks at it funny and make the whole thing explode

Yeah, but that would still marginalize the T-34 as is. The PzIV needs to come later, imo a return to beta fuel reqs (160 I think) would be in order. And then of course T4 of both races gets its fuel cost increased, too.

That way german has to decide between Stug and Ostwind as first tank, which would be pretty exciting imo, as both Tanks can deal with T-34 without dominating it.

The PzIV should be relegated to a luxury unit instead of being staple.

Yeah, but that would still marginalize the T-34 as is. The PzIV needs to come later, imo a return to beta fuel reqs (160 I think) would be in order. And then of course T4 of both races gets its fuel cost increased, too.

That way german has to decide between Stug and Ostwind as first tank, which would be pretty exciting imo, as both Tanks can deal with T-34 without dominating it.

The PzIV should be relegated to a luxury unit instead of being staple.

+1. Would much rather see interesting tech decisions between Ost and Stug and P4 maybe if I can hold out for it. Right now it's a complete no brainer.

Buff T34 to proper medium battle tank stats, remove cone sight from SU85 to require additional units providing LOS (like every other unit), up reload if its range is going to remain so high. Cost is fine if those changes happen.

The PzIV should be relegated to a luxury unit instead of being staple.

They would have to be careful to not ruin T3 altogether, otherwise people will always go for T4, get an Ostwind, then Panthers.

We don't want to see the P4 to be too expensive making it unaffordable or a stupid choice.

I thought with a T34 buff and perhaps a small increase to P4 fuel cost we would be sitting pretty.

In general the game needs more TECHing options similar to the original. T34 definitely needs an armor/penetration buff maybe make the ram a munitions upgrade and T34/85 a tech upgrade.

I generally dislike the ram feature all together. Historically speaking it would make more sense to give the T34 an Overdrive ability since it was known for its flanking.