Ostheer (Wehrmacht) Grenadiers

Grens get everything you said. Without a doctrine nor separate upgrade research.

5 man grens for 240 mp with the same stats per model? Yeah sure, that would surely make ost builds more diverse. WELCOME TO THE NEW META, WHERE GRENS ARE THE NEW OSTTRUPPEN EXCEPT THEY KILL INFANTRY EVEN FASTER

People comparing rifle lmg to gren mg 42 are the same people who compare e8 and t34-85 to stock p4.

I compared Grens to Volks, not two LMGs. I actually could care less and said nothing about the USF LMGs. My question still goes unanswered after you threw your little fit. If Volks have the same price, 5 models and AI plus AT capabilities, why would it be so incredibly forbidden to give Grens also 5 models in addition to their AI plus AT capabilities? I don't mind changing their stats a bit, but the importance of squad sizes is one of the biggest issues in CoH2. You can't just magically make up for having less models by giving them some stats here and there as long as it stays more or less balanced.

It's not even so much about the combat stats, it's mostly about the feel a player has. And I feel shitty when having to rely on squishy squads with only 4 man when I don't even have a forward retreat point. They feel really useless for offensive plays, which may be ok for 240 MP, but Volks can be used more freely due to the additional model.

I think it may be too hard to understand for people who are living in the stats department.

I compared Grens to Volks, not two LMGs. I actually could care less and said nothing about the USF LMGs. My question still goes unanswered after you threw your little fit. If Volks have the same price, 5 models and AI plus AT capabilities, why would it be so incredibly forbidden to give Grens also 5 models in addition to their AI plus AT capabilities? I don't mind changing their stats a bit, but the importance of squad sizes is one of the biggest issues in CoH2. You can't just magically make up for having less models by giving them some stats here and there as long as it stays more or less balanced.

That is flawed logic.

Same argumentation can be used about upgrades(which soviets don't have), reliable indirect fire(which UKF and USF don't have), light vehicles(which Ost don't have), forward retreat points(which ost and sov don't have) and many, many other features that X army have and Y don't and would benefit greatly from.

And lets just ignore placing shreck and pfaust on the same level in your post.

Model count isn't that important to throw all balance achieved so far out of the window.
UKF players often NOT upgrading to 5th man is the very best example of why 5 men grens aren't needed.

USF finally do something now, people got used to that USF has always been weak l2p thread

Far from it, if you cannot feel it, look and you can see it.

That is flawed logic.

Same argumentation can be used about upgrades(which soviets don't have), reliable indirect fire(which UKF and USF don't have), light vehicles(which Ost don't have), forward retreat points(which ost and sov don't have) and many, many other features that X army have and Y don't and would benefit greatly from.

And lets just ignore placing shreck and pfaust on the same level in your post.

Model count isn't that important to throw all balance achieved so far out of the window.
UKF players often NOT upgrading to 5th man is the very best example of why 5 men grens aren't needed.

And the next person implying stuff I did neither write nor mean. There must be a nest or something... There is hardly any flawed logic since I did not compare Grens to Riflemen, IS or Conscripts for Christ's sake. I am comparing them to Volks. I am comparing them to units they will never play against in Automatch. Which is exactly why I am questioning why the small difference between those units does forbid giving both 5 models. There is no logical reason.

You point about Pschreck vs Pfaust is nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking, since it only proves the point about Grens I am trying to make here, if anything. Of course a Pfaust does not equal a Pschreck, thanks for clarifying. Maybe that's the reason why Ost gets PGrens later on while OKF gets no additional infantry unit with AT capabilities. Mind = blown.

Let me try a third and last time. Volks and Grens have the same jobs, their only difference is the order in which they unlock stuff. Grens start with light AT and can upgrade to decent AI, whereas Volks start with light AI and can upgrade to decent AT. Those details are all absolutely unimportant for the simple point I am making here, it's astonishing how they are still brought up just for the sake of finding something to bitch about.


And yes, model count disadvantage combined with no forward retreat option actually IS an important factor that can offset balance.

The only thing that is flawed here is your UKF comparison. Maybe the reason people don't use it much (source btw? your own games only?) is that it freaking costs something while not reducing reinforcement costs and makes the most MP starved faction in the game bleed even more. Just a distant possibility, yet worth mentioning, I think.

And the next person implying stuff I did neither write nor mean. There must be a nest or something... There is hardly any flawed logic since I did not compare Grens to Riflemen, IS or Conscripts for Christ's sake. I am comparing them to Volks. I am comparing them to units they will never play against in Automatch. Which is exactly why I am questioning why the small difference between those units does forbid giving both 5 models. There is no logical reason.

And yet you still put equation mark between pfaust and shreck and for some reason believe volks are AI squad.

Another fun thing:
Please take calculator and count durability of volks and durability of grens relation to each other(how much volks are sturdier) and their DPS relation, especially at long range(this time how much grens are stronger then volks).

I believe you'll find these results at least interesting.

You point about Pschreck vs Pfaust is nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking, since it only proves the point about Grens I am trying to make here, if anything. Of course a Pfaust does not equal a Pschreck, thanks for clarifying. Maybe that's the reason why Ost gets PGrens later on while OKF gets no additional infantry unit with AT capabilities. Mind = blown.

Nitpicking? You've just said pshreck provide equal utility to pfausts in your previous post by comparing the two squads utilities while you've made a fundamental mistake of making it sound like UTILITY of one unit is equal to ROLE of another. That isn't nitpicking, that is like saying molotovs equal LMGs, because both hurt infantry.

Let me try a third and last time. Volks and Grens have the same jobs, their only difference is the order in which they unlock stuff. Grens start with light AT and can upgrade to decent AI, whereas Volks start with light AI and can upgrade to decent AT. Those details are all absolutely unimportant for the simple point I am making here, it's astonishing how they are still brought up just for the sake of finding something to bitch about.

Except they have different jobs.
Grens are long range damage dealers while volks are hard AT and meat shields for AI elite infantry.
They are both mainline infantry, but their roles are significantly different.
I find it astonishing that after well over a year people for some unknown to humanity reasons still believe that volks and grens have anything in common in regards to battlefield role and use after first 3 minutes of the game.

And yes, model count disadvantage combined with no forward retreat option actually IS

Whole forward retreat point IDEA is flawed and imbalanced. Model count is completely irrelevant between them and if you want to know why, well, I've asked you to pick calculator and do some basic math-now go and do it.

The only thing that is flawed here is your UKF comparison. Maybe the reason people don't use it much (source btw? your own games only?) is that it freaking costs something while not reducing reinforcement costs and makes the most MP starved faction in the game bleed even more. Just a distant possibility, yet worth mentioning, I think.

You can go and watch streamers, remind yourself OCF, download non 3v3 and 4v4 reps.
Bottom line is, they do perfectly fine as 4 men squads, the only singular reason they didn't was incredibly overpowered sniper and cripplingly high reinforcement costs.

Blah blah blah.

Did a bit of thread cleaning.

Keep it on topic! XD

Grens are so bad right now people are dropping them completely in 1s and are replacing them with Ostruppen or assault Grens.

the fact that Grens lose to USF and UKF infantry at every stage of the game makes them completely useless and not worth building over assault grens or ostruppen

Those units cost money to get though their respective commanders.

So right now you have to pay Sega to replace your outdated basic infantry with viable starting units

or spam weapon teams until you lose.

Grens are so bad right now people are dropping them completely in 1s and are replacing them with Ostruppen or assault Grens.

the fact that Grens lose to USF and UKF infantry at every stage of the game makes them completely useless and not worth building over assault grens or ostruppen

Those units cost money to get though their respective commanders.

So right now you have to pay Sega to replace your outdated basic infantry with viable starting units

or spam weapon teams until you lose.

Ass grens core infantry I don't even

And the next person implying stuff I did neither write nor mean. There must be a nest or something... There is hardly any flawed logic since I did not compare Grens to Riflemen, IS or Conscripts for Christ's sake. I am comparing them to Volks. I am comparing them to units they will never play against in Automatch. Which is exactly why I am questioning why the small difference between those units does forbid giving both 5 models. There is no logical reason.

You point about Pschreck vs Pfaust is nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking, since it only proves the point about Grens I am trying to make here, if anything. Of course a Pfaust does not equal a Pschreck, thanks for clarifying. Maybe that's the reason why Ost gets PGrens later on while OKF gets no additional infantry unit with AT capabilities. Mind = blown.

Let me try a third and last time. Volks and Grens have the same jobs, their only difference is the order in which they unlock stuff. Grens start with light AT and can upgrade to decent AI, whereas Volks start with light AI and can upgrade to decent AT. Those details are all absolutely unimportant for the simple point I am making here, it's astonishing how they are still brought up just for the sake of finding something to bitch about.


And yes, model count disadvantage combined with no forward retreat option actually IS an important factor that can offset balance.

The only thing that is flawed here is your UKF comparison. Maybe the reason people don't use it much (source btw? your own games only?) is that it freaking costs something while not reducing reinforcement costs and makes the most MP starved faction in the game bleed even more. Just a distant possibility, yet worth mentioning, I think.

Of all the stupid stuff I read in this forum this logic is the worst. And so many people use it. "Faction X has a certain feature -> why doesnt faction Y have it too." Volks and grens don't have anything to do with each other. They're different units in different armies and thus have different strengths and weaknesses. Why do forum warriors want all the factions to feel the same???

Why do forum warriors want all the factions to feel the same???

Because they stick like glue to a single faction and can't take it if some other faction have something that they don't, but they won't switch to that other faction to enjoy that other feature as it would mean betrayal to their ideology and glorious leader?

Being the pompous prick I am, I will just quote myself from another thread here.

A lot of people seem to be on board for a 5 man Grenadier squad. I think this would completely change the identity of the squad. At the moment Grens are squishy and are supposed to be squishy. It's their shtick. That is why they are the cheapest mainline inf (in addition to cons), have long-range DPS profile, long-range abilities, and a long-range upgrade.

After years of back and forth, it can be said that the early game infantry matchups of all factions (except Brits who are still oscillating between UP and OP units, overbuffs and overnerfs) are more or less in the right spot. If you overturn years of finetuning you better have a damn good way to do it.

That battle phase 3 suggestion is the best of them all. Doesn't affect early game, helps with those late game wipes to a lucky tank shots.

Btw the "battle phase 3 suggestion" was basically a suggestion to get a 5 man upgrade for Grenadiers after reaching Battle Phase 3, either automatically or as a separate unlock.

Grens, although a little on the weaker side, still feel fine to me. They vet well, and make decent core infantry when supported by team weapons(even if I cant micro MGs for shit). Rifle vet buff may need a slight rework, but nothing overly drastic.

another wehrmacht noob

vs UFS u use mg42, grens are just support

another wehrmacht noob

vs UFS u use mg42, grens are just support

until the usfler has the brilliant idea to tech nades

Don't even use this shit anymore-skip altogether unless i need to build some snipers,They can't win anything earlygame ...can't win anything lategame.Only competitive for a small window of time midgame.Too high reinforce,too high wipe chance,shit grenade.Plus a muni sink ur better off investing in tellers and MP on pzgrens/osttruppen and mg42s.

Wake me up when they get vet buffed like rifles,or an upgrade for 5 men late in the game.
Thing is I don't even miss them.

another wehrmacht noob

vs UFS u use mg42, grens are just support

In fact their utility as 'support' is not really that much because basically they are useless lategame when ur mg42s won't save you due to vet,smoke and elite infantry.Osttruppen and pzgren can be better support.

Yes because 5 man grenadier squads for 240 mp will solve absolutely every problem


Grens are cheap and cost effective, and that's not good enough?

Gren is cheap? 30 mp reinforcement vs 28 mp for Rifle/IS

Chost effective? gren << Rifle/IS

Grens were OP as heck in vCoH and they were only 4 man squads. Increasing them to a 5 man doesn't really solve their issue. They definitely do pretty well at vet3, if they can hit vet3. I just think they need their vet switched around. It should also apply to Pgrens.

Vet1 First Aid
Vet2 +20% acc, -23% received acc
Vet3 +20% acc, -20% cooldown, -25% recharge w/ panzerfaust

This helps their early/mid game survivability where they are the most vulnerable. It's also a small enough change that wouldn't completely break the game.

I'm still relatively new, so take what I say with a grain of salt...

1. Assgrens aren't a great substitute for Grens, though they do work good in conjunction with each other. Can't speak much for Ostruppen.

2. While they definitely seem to be the weakest when compared directly to USF Riflemen, I very rarely use them in a pure 1v1 fight. There is always an HMG, Mortar, or Sniper being used in conjunction. I tend to use my Grens as a lure sometimes. One model dies quick, the other three seem like an easy kill.

3. A forward retreat point for Ostheer would be great, but I'm not entirely sure what it will fix. Grens still have the same combat abilities, they can just get back to it quicker.

Anyways, correct me if I'm terribly wrong but isn't the point of the early Ostheer game to utilize all your different infantry in some sort of a triangular support system to control the map until you can get a decent vehicle out, or simply lock down the map for an early game win? I never envisioned that my Gren squads could compete with most of the other infantry out there. To me, they are meant to be used in conjunction which is where the true effectiveness lies.