State of balance - Thematic problems in CoH2

USF sacrifices a mortar for smoke on rifles. (Before you say it, they sacrifice a sniper and doctrinal arty for the Pack Howitzer.)

If they smoke an area have you tried moving back to another prepared firing position? They'll have smoked for nothing.

I also recommend wire, everywehr.

IMO minus flamethrowers (OP!) Rifles are perfect balance wise, underperforming units should be changed to counter them if required.

Flamethrowers,double 1919,buffed veterancy(particualrly vet 3) and rifle company vet rifles call-in(making getting to late vet too fast easy) - These are the main problems with riflemen.

Rifle company needs serious hard nerf on flamers.

The vet bonuses need to be brought in line with axis vet 3 core infantry.

And to solve MP bleed problem ,lategame give them HQ upgrade that will decrease tehir reinnforce cost or upkeep a bit like supply depot of coh1.This will not break combat balance like insane vet 3 bonuses did,but solve MP bleed problem.

Finally double 1919 should not be allowed.Even if allowed on rifles, RE blobs with 1919 need to be dealt with.

USF sacrifices a mortar for smoke on rifles. (Before you say it, they sacrifice a sniper and doctrinal arty for the Pack Howitzer.)

If they smoke an area have you tried moving back to another prepared firing position? They'll have smoked for nothing.

I also recommend wire, everywehr.

IMO minus flamethrowers (OP!) Rifles are perfect balance wise, underperforming units should be changed to counter them if required.

Well.... Amis do have mortar halftrack which does Hardcounter mass MGs, but notwithstanding that as its doctrinal.

Yes, I do micro MGs whenever I see smoke, but the idea of virtually every Ami unit having smoke is a bit strong to me. I wouldn't mind if it was just on LTs and Captains, + it would encourage ppl to tech both too.

Also Wire is useless by midgame when you have vehicles getting involved.

This pesky mg in building Spam! Better try to bruteforce them out it instead of capping the whole map with your superior capping Power ( which increases as you tech) or go they P2w way and pick rifle commander

And if i dont want to pick rifle commnder cos i am sick of him i love rangers and pershing ...
Usf have only one style of play spam rifles

At the moment, I feel that CoH2 has some serious thematic problems that are exasperated by “balance” which at the moment, is focused on single units and stats of the unit being built rather than its relation to the rest of the faction and the underlying theme that the faction gives – that and a large amount of design flaws in certain factions (ie UKF) that make this game simply not as satisfying as VCoH ever was.

So, lets start with the themes of factions on initial release (not withstanding broken shit)

Soviets – Strong earlygame, very good assault units earlygame, had a choice between teching to either a generalist tank line or a Fire support line.

Ostheer – Defensive earlygame faction , not as good at taking ground but compensates for that with endgame combined arms strength

OKW – Strong Earlygame and lategame faction, specialist faction where units only excel at one certain thing and thats it, has 5 levels of vet so if you keep your units alive, you will be rewarded.

USF – Strong Earlygame and midgame faction – offensive faction with a lot of mobility and firepower through mainline infantry, lategame strength comes from numbers rather than individual units.

UKF – Defensive Earlygame and strong lategame faction – has very strong, expensive infantry that are very good for defending territory but not so good for attacking. Excellent tank options though
_____________________________________________
Based on this, lets see where we currently are.

OKW – completely gimped – their veterancy, even up to vet 5, scales really badly with allies, esp USF and UKF, and a lot of their specialists units, although they required nerfs from release, have been simply overnerfed. That and with the power creep that resulted from commanders like Heavy Cavalry and factions like UKF, means that their specialist units are all of a sudden not as good anymore. That and, with gimped resource production, OKW now find themselves inferior to all allied factions at all stages of the game, which completely goes against the faction design of OKW. I’m perfectly fine with 5 levels of vet – its hard to earn, but if you earn it, then you should be rewarded. – TLDR – OKW is completely broken now Themewise.

USF – Rifles are finally strong now, and no longer as strong as RE, but frankly, their earlygame is waaay too strong now. One ability that really should not be in the game is smoke – Rifles are the strongest main line offensive infantry in the game and they can be spammed from T0 – why they need an ability like Smoke is beyond me. I mean Conscripts do perfectly fine without smoke against MGs if you flank, and the VCoH US did perfectly fine without abilities like smoke against MGs and Wehr, so I don’t understand why such a strong unit needs an ability like smoke. This causes problems for the Wehr theme which I’ll get to in a minute.

UKF – Absolutely the most design and theme-breaking faction in the game. We’ll start from release. For instance, there is no reason as to why such a defensive faction in the game needs an AT sniper – which I thought was a silly inclusion by Relic. Because of its ability to damage vehicles, there are no real hard counters to the AT sniper. Especially considering that the AT sniper is in the same tier as the ATG that comes reasonably early as well – I don’t see why the sniper should be able to damage tanks. Moreover, I don’t even understand why the Brits have a sniper unit. In VCoH, the Brits could put a scoped rifle in their Tommie squad, which was perfectly fine as it costed muni and had less range than the Wehr sniper, so you couldn’t go around and pop units anywhere without really thinking.

Now I mention the Tommie squad, Relic what was up with the -10% decrease in MP, making them cost less MP per model than a Gren? Considering that the Brits are a defensive faction, this change really was not needed. It now gives the brits a lot of offensive options now esp against Wehr with field heal and everything since Wehr would now be bled per model instead of Brits, especially when Brit infantry is in cover. That coupled with the most cost effective assault engineer unit in the game turns the brits into what was a defensive faction into a viable offensive faction which pretty much hurts not only the British but also the Ostheer and OKW themes as well.

Finally, since due to the nature of CoH2 and most maps, its impossible to deny the British fuel, and now with the buff to british offensive ability, means that the Brits overall will tech a lot faster that Ost (and OKW) with better tanks. I’m perfectly fine with Brits having good tanks, thats part of their design, but instead of toning down British aggression in the early game, it has been ramped up significantly as we can see from the last patch.

Because of this, Ost has been left in the dust – typically (except against Brits) Ost tends to have a good way of defending itself while being outnumbered, which I’m perfectly fine with. But it has a harder time taking map control. In VCoH, the thing that made it interesting when US were able to take a good amount of vet control was universal vet that Wehr was able to buy that allowed them to have the midgame-endgame strength. This doesn’t happen in CoH2, and with power creep thats been going on, means that Ost no longer has the offensive endgame material that has been a core part of its faction design to win.

At the moment, the only faction in a good place currently is the Soviets. Its mostly remained to its faction themes and is competitive throughout the game with many viable compositions available – except for the SU-76 which, rather than being a glass cannon TD, should be looked at more as a midgame unit with decent AT and decent barrage instead of really good SU-85 levels of TD and completely gimped barrage – I feel leaving the SU-76 in its current state while switching it from T4 when it had to compete with the Su-85 to T3 lazy balancing. This isn’t a theme issue so much as it is a historical issue – its silly for SU-76s to penn KTs.

TLDR: Relic, stop listening to community about individual buffs/nerfs of certain units because of balance and instead, pay attention to themes of factions/historical authenticity that you’re promoting in your advertisments, yet so badly ignore and neglect in your faction design and balance patches.

OKW : need a infantry buff, may be a fuel buff but it does not need any tank buff, you still have better tanks in the game, and with a competent Osth mate, you can easily bring the infamous tanks

USF : Sure take smoke from them, give osth the ability to nullify everything with sniper and mg42.
You can't compare USF riflemens and Soviet conscript, Soviet are early infantry, are powerfull in numbers, but lack any late game potential(countered by the soviet design of call-in infantry specialist, it suck hard). USF riflemens ARE THE ONLY LINE INFANTRY of the usf, nerf riflemens, remove smoke, and you will se RE spam again.

UKF :Take back AT sniper, why not make a auto surrender versus werh in that case ? Sniper is a "forced to produce " unit versus Osth to play the sniper war. IS cost reduction was necessary, you couldn't field more than 2 (if not more than one) because of the bleed.


Osth need help and redisign, as OKW need it too. BUT IT DOES NOT REQUIRE A ALLIED NERF !


You know what, You saw Soviet as the most balanced faction because it's the weakest faction, I don't know about 1v1, but in 2v2 (classed a competitive too by lelic), soviet are support faction, forced to go t70/ katyoush and let the "real" factions field potent battle tanks.


Osth should be redisign to be close to UKF, OKW should be redisign to have potent base infantry like any other factions.

But please stop the nerf allies.

Lelic make this game company of blobs, company of "you got one line infantry, you don't need combined arms beside ATG (USF and UKF)" vs "Company of useless infantry that need Combined arms to hold the line".


Poorest design.

OKW : need a infantry buff, may be a fuel buff but it does not need any tank buff, you still have better tanks in the game, and with a competent Osth mate, you can easily bring the infamous tanks

USF : Sure take smoke from them, give osth the ability to nullify everything with sniper and mg42.
You can't compare USF riflemens and Soviet conscript, Soviet are early infantry, are powerfull in numbers, but lack any late game potential(countered by the soviet design of call-in infantry specialist, it suck hard). USF riflemens ARE THE ONLY LINE INFANTRY of the usf, nerf riflemens, remove smoke, and you will se RE spam again.

UKF :Take back AT sniper, why not make a auto surrender versus werh in that case ? Sniper is a "forced to produce " unit versus Osth to play the sniper war. IS cost reduction was necessary, you couldn't field more than 2 (if not more than one) because of the bleed.


Osth need help and redisign, as OKW need it too. BUT IT DOES NOT REQUIRE A ALLIED NERF !


You know what, You saw Soviet as the most balanced faction because it's the weakest faction, I don't know about 1v1, but in 2v2 (classed a competitive too by lelic), soviet are support faction, forced to go t70/ katyoush and let the "real" factions field potent battle tanks.


Osth should be redisign to be close to UKF, OKW should be redisign to have potent base infantry like any other factions.

But please stop the nerf allies.

Lelic make this game company of blobs, company of "you got one line infantry, you don't need combined arms beside ATG (USF and UKF)" vs "Company of useless infantry that need Combined arms to hold the line".


Poorest design.

Most of my posts were relating to the 1v1 scene. But anyway I'll go through it

1. Yeah OKW has the best tanks but they don't really come out because they get pushed off the map, by the time they are able to field those tanks, the counters are well out already.
2. Why should Ost be redesigned when its doing reasonably against Sovs and USF. It's UKF which is the new faction that should undertake major redesigns if there are design issues, not Ost.
3. No, getting rid of smoke is not the end all when it comes to MG42s, there's something called flanking unless if that's too hard for you, then by all means spam smoke in front of the MG42s. LTs and captains should get smoke if its needed so much rather than Rifles IMO. Snipers are another problem but USF does have a few counters it can bring out in 4-5 minutes if the Ost player is spamming MGs too.
4. UKF bleed was the thing that stops UKF from pushing out and being too aggressive earlygame. And yet even this was still possible prior to the buff as Aimstrong had made clear in OCF.
5. The alternative to snipers can be the one used in VCoH where an infantry unit gets a sniper rifle that can snipe for munis. Either way, the AT ability that the sniper currently has is pretty bullshit IMO.

Soviets are not weak, they are anything but weak, they are really strong earlygame, (conscripts are still sturdy units at all stages of the game) have good midgame control and have strong units endgame too, so i don't get where you're getting it from. Of course, its not as easy as USF and UKF but they are still a strong faction. Maybe its not as strong compared to USF and UKF in 2v2, but its still really strong in the 1v1 scene.

Most of my posts were relating to the 1v1 scene. But anyway I'll go through it

1. Yeah OKW has the best tanks but they don't really come out because they get pushed off the map, by the time they are able to field those tanks, the counters are well out already.
2. Why should Ost be redesigned when its doing reasonably against Sovs and USF. It's UKF which is the new faction that should undertake major redesigns if there are design issues, not Ost.
3. No, getting rid of smoke is not the end all when it comes to MG42s, there's something called flanking unless if that's too hard for you, then by all means spam smoke in front of the MG42s. LTs and captains should get smoke if its needed so much rather than Rifles IMO. Snipers are another problem but USF does have a few counters it can bring out in 4-5 minutes if the Ost player is spamming MGs too.
4. UKF bleed was the thing that stops UKF from pushing out and being too aggressive earlygame. And yet even this was still possible prior to the buff as Aimstrong had made clear in OCF.
5. The alternative to snipers can be the one used in VCoH where an infantry unit gets a sniper rifle that can snipe for munis. Either way, the AT ability that the sniper currently has is pretty bullshit IMO.

Soviets are not weak, they are anything but weak, they are really strong earlygame, (conscripts are still sturdy units at all stages of the game) have good midgame control and have strong units endgame too, so i don't get where you're getting it from. Of course, its not as easy as USF and UKF but they are still a strong faction. Maybe its not as strong compared to USF and UKF in 2v2, but its still really strong in the 1v1 scene.

1v1 and 2v2 are supposed to be competitive(and have balance, but lelic don't know what it means) so i'll anwser too :

1. As any of the allied tanks... Axis don't rely on tanks to stop tanks, Allies rely on tanks to take advantage when enemy got support. Still OKW puma/stuka/KT/JT are extremely strong in team game

2.Why Osth should keep his "vanilla" design when you can new and funniest design like UKF one ? If we all want to keep it like VCOH 2 the game will be axis based as it was for almost a year. And I still don't get the point of removing UKF sniper, what would counter 222/flame HT/ sniper ? Bren gun ? AT gun ? Let's just circle because IS don't have any AT nade/. And we will see sniper with 50 + kills because you can't kill it like Osth vs USF 6 months ago. Make Gren cost less to reinforce, like IS or USF, but i'm pretty sure you will see gren spam with mg 42 insta win strat again(that's why they have high cost and pop cap)

3. Yes it will Flanking is only a 1v1 tactics that isn't in 2v2. 2v2 is competitive, so smoke need to stay in the game. IF it's too hard for you to understand i'm affraid I can't do anything... Let's take forest 2v2, double USF vs double Osth, 2 good placed MG can't negate both fuel, supported by 1/2 gren and a second MG it's gg 3 mins without smoke, sure we'll have OPriflemens, being suppresed before even fighting. One v one ain't the only balance perspective thx to lelic. But yeah, try flanking on small maps, i'll love to watch that. Please tell me how to counter a sniper as USF, versus potent player of course ? Run m20(Get fausted ) ? Stuart(get fausted and packed) ? Rely on Howitzer (Pray RNG god) ? Snipers can't be countered unless you do micro/macro fail and run into riflemens.

4.UKF bleeds was the only things that keep UKF from being a viable faction. 2 month it's out there we should stop call it for nerf. Let make UKF bleed again and what will be options ? You got overpriced line infantry being sniped to death by Osth, you can't field more than 2 versus 4/5 volks. Only infantry will be RE with bren. What a glorious design, worthing it. I'll like to watch this on SC2 : "drone is the only viable units because zelots and stalkers cost an arm". Aimstrong LOOSE the OCF finals right !Stop calling Aimstrong any time community whine about brits. Give to Aimstrong current Centaur + current churchill + UKF pre patch bleed, and i'm sure you won't even see ukf in quarter final, i'll love to watch 2 IS + 2 Re + 1 at breing bleeded out by 5 vokls + tanks. Centaur was a problem (because dps and bug) yet now the only viables tanks are comet and cromwells.

5.Alternative is to stop comparing COH 2 to COH, it's not the same game, not the same gameplay. Snipers are not countered if you don't have a sniper in your army(versus potent players without fail micro/macro).
All faction should have a proper counter or sniper OR sniper should be removed.


Soviets, Soviet rely on shock units to take advantage. It's not more "pro" or "skilled" to play them(unless late game where they got nothing to fight ?). You compared Conscripts to riflemens,
As I said in 2v2 they're trash, relyed on Katioush and support role with a good "shock units".

1v1 and 2v2 are supposed to be competitive(and have balance, but lelic don't know what it means) so i'll anwser too :

1. As any of the allied tanks... Axis don't rely on tanks to stop tanks, Allies rely on tanks to take advantage when enemy got support. Still OKW puma/stuka/KT/JT are extremely strong in team game

2.Why Osth should keep his "vanilla" design when you can new and funniest design like UKF one ? If we all want to keep it like VCOH 2 the game will be axis based as it was for almost a year. And I still don't get the point of removing UKF sniper, what would counter 222/flame HT/ sniper ? Bren gun ? AT gun ? Let's just circle because IS don't have any AT nade/. And we will see sniper with 50 + kills because you can't kill it like Osth vs USF 6 months ago. Make Gren cost less to reinforce, like IS or USF, but i'm pretty sure you will see gren spam with mg 42 insta win strat again(that's why they have high cost and pop cap)

3. Yes it will Flanking is only a 1v1 tactics that isn't in 2v2. 2v2 is competitive, so smoke need to stay in the game. IF it's too hard for you to understand i'm affraid I can't do anything... Let's take forest 2v2, double USF vs double Osth, 2 good placed MG can't negate both fuel, supported by 1/2 gren and a second MG it's gg 3 mins without smoke, sure we'll have OPriflemens, being suppresed before even fighting. One v one ain't the only balance perspective thx to lelic. But yeah, try flanking on small maps, i'll love to watch that. Please tell me how to counter a sniper as USF, versus potent player of course ? Run m20(Get fausted ) ? Stuart(get fausted and packed) ? Rely on Howitzer (Pray RNG god) ? Snipers can't be countered unless you do micro/macro fail and run into riflemens.

4.UKF bleeds was the only things that keep UKF from being a viable faction. 2 month it's out there we should stop call it for nerf. Let make UKF bleed again and what will be options ? You got overpriced line infantry being sniped to death by Osth, you can't field more than 2 versus 4/5 volks. Only infantry will be RE with bren. What a glorious design, worthing it. I'll like to watch this on SC2 : "drone is the only viable units because zelots and stalkers cost an arm". Aimstrong LOOSE the OCF finals right !Stop calling Aimstrong any time community whine about brits. Give to Aimstrong current Centaur + current churchill + UKF pre patch bleed, and i'm sure you won't even see ukf in quarter final, i'll love to watch 2 IS + 2 Re + 1 at breing bleeded out by 5 vokls + tanks. Centaur was a problem (because dps and bug) yet now the only viables tanks are comet and cromwells.

5.Alternative is to stop comparing COH 2 to COH, it's not the same game, not the same gameplay. Snipers are not countered if you don't have a sniper in your army(versus potent players without fail micro/macro).
All faction should have a proper counter or sniper OR sniper should be removed.


Soviets, Soviet rely on shock units to take advantage. It's not more "pro" or "skilled" to play them(unless late game where they got nothing to fight ?). You compared Conscripts to riflemens,
As I said in 2v2 they're trash, relyed on Katioush and support role with a good "shock units".

1. Fair enough
2. Why should Ost keep its design? Because after 2 years of being in the game, it works out reasonably well against Sovs and USF. It makes no sense to redesign it because UKF came out. If anything, its a sign that UKF is the problem not Ost. As they all say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. I don't see how that will affect things if LTs/Captains don't get smoke, its easy to get tech within 4 minutes (by then, Axis may have 3-4 MGs). Point is, smoke on rifles is too strong. If I was trying to play against sniper play, Id try to keep an M20 to keep the sniper back along with rifles, it gets into really complex theorycrafty play that doesn't really work when describing it on a forum. Thats what I'd try to do, but its not a hard counter.
4. "UKF bleeds was the only things that keep UKF from being a viable faction." "Aimstrong LOOSE the OCF finals right !Stop calling Aimstrong any time community whine about brits."

Lel so one guy pretty much beats the entire CoH2 community with Brits except DevM, who doesn't really play that much CoH2 compared to VCoH back in the day, and you're calling Brits uncompetitive? I'm sorry, do you actually think you know better than they do? By going down this path, we can also assert USF is OP because DevM won off the back of it in OCF (and thats without Rifle Company). You can see where this is going, and you're only digging a hole for yourself mate

I'm sure Brits was completely unviable last patch, thats why Aimstrong won all his games in a big money tournament where you're guaranteed everyone at his stage was playing their best.

5. But you see, I make comparisons to VCoH... because it works and the infantry gameplay is by and large similar (except Capping mechanics are more friendly to cappers). If a good idea came from VCoH, use it... At least we both seem to agree that the AT ability on the UKF sniper is bullshit.

And yes, Conscripts aren't great compared to USF Rifles or brit IS, but conscripts are very good when it comes to holding the line, defending, and being able to assault positions thanks to its sprint ability. It is a very versatile unit, especially with doctrinal abilities. Never underestimate conscripts in a battle.

Lel so one guy pretty much beats the entire CoH2 community with Brits except DevM, who doesn't really play that much CoH2 compared to VCoH back in the day, and you're calling Brits uncompetitive?

It's a TOURNAMENT, at the end, one player beat everyone.

Was if people on real competitive game like SC2, say NERF THIS FACTION every time the faction win a tournament. Patch en nerf every weeks ?


It's absolutely no sense, your argument is pointless. You took exemple of one champion, because one win a tournament it's op, even if he loose at final.

So let's go, DevM prove that Osth is OP because he won OCF vs brits. end of story.

It's a TOURNAMENT, at the end, one player beat everyone.

Was if people on real competitive game like SC2, say NERF THIS FACTION every time the faction win a tournament. Patch en nerf every weeks ?


It's absolutely no sense, your argument is pointless. You took exemple of one champion, because one win a tournament it's op, even if he loose at final.

so your conclusion is 1v1 and 2v2 are balanced?

so your conclusion is 1v1 and 2v2 are balanced?

Nope.

But your only argument now seems to be "one go to final, the faction is op plz nerf".

Axis need buff, it does not go with allies need nerf.

But you seems to not understand.

Elaborately written "Allies OP PLS NURF" post.

Nope.

But your only argument now seems to be "one go to final, the faction is op plz nerf".

Axis need buff, it does not go with allies need nerf.

But you seems to not understand.

was my first post in this thread, but i seem not to understand.

Elaborately written "Allies OP PLS NURF" post.

Nope, just Brits and USF.

Especially Brits.

It's a TOURNAMENT, at the end, one player beat everyone.

Was if people on real competitive game like SC2, say NERF THIS FACTION every time the faction win a tournament. Patch en nerf every weeks ?


It's absolutely no sense, your argument is pointless. You took exemple of one champion, because one win a tournament it's op, even if he loose at final.

So let's go, DevM prove that Osth is OP because he won OCF vs brits. end of story.

You were saying that Brits were uncompetitive and I give you an example of a player who was wiping the floor with Brits, hence brits is competitive. Wasn't that the line of argument you were going by? I wasn't saying Brits was OP, I was saying Brits is Competitive, but now its turned into an OP/Not-OP argument. This was pre patch of course.

Nice Strawman btw, please continue

The problem wasnt the state of Brits on release (except for the AT sniper, the Centaur IMO could have done without the nerf ), the problem is the state of Brits now.

USF at Vet 3 should have better infantry than axis since axis overall had better armor. But it should be closer since USF has de facto better survivability due to 5 men. Also smoke should go to officers and elite infantry call ins only.

USF at Vet 3 should have better infantry than axis since axis overall had better armor. But it should be closer since USF has de facto better survivability due to 5 men. Also smoke should go to officers and elite infantry call ins only.

That'll happen like moving LMG42s to PGs or Oorah! to call-ins - it's kind of a key factor to the faction's holistic design.

Play Osttruppen Doctine as Ost. They are a map control dream.

But honestly, good write up. Pretty much agreed, and the constant nerf un-nerf is just silly

Play Osttruppen Doctine as Ost. They are a map control dream.

But honestly, good write up. Pretty much agreed, and the constant nerf un-nerf is just silly

Yeah thanks, its simply crazy what relic are doing.

There was one time when they released a Balance Preview (I think it was July) - which is on the right path to quality QA. Where has that gone? Surely if you have more ppl testing it (especially serious players) like you do on coh2.org, you'd think all these imbalances would be solved (and lets not forget the bugs). Other games do it reasonably well, World of Tanks comes to mind.

But well, it turned out to be a temporary thing unless if I'm mistaken, haven't really seen much of it since.

USF at Vet 3 should have better infantry than axis since axis overall had better armor. But it should be closer since USF has de facto better survivability due to 5 men. Also smoke should go to officers and elite infantry call ins only.

I don't mind if they do have better inf, but Ost would need some infantry based way to deal with it, I don't mean squad wipes, but allow it to hold ground. I don't think MG34 grens are the answer to this, this would negate the quality vet 3 infantry for the US, I think just the crowd control unit, the MG42 should allow ost to hold back rifles with infantry....

Except it doesn't because rifles has smoke which negates MG42s.

Personally, I'd be fine with vet 3 being the way it is (without flamers) if they didn't have smoke.