State of balance - Thematic problems in CoH2

No I have problems with logical fallacies and false analogies.

Yea I also stopped reading when he said the USF doesn't need smoke. I want to see his method for flanking 3-5 MG's all in buildings or bunkers along with kubels when the enemy doesn't have to do anything other than build MG-42's to shut down your entire early-midgame.

Using the VCOH argument is fucking retarded because the games are night and day different.

USF and Soviets are fine right now, UKF is pretty ridiculous with recent changes, and the OKW is a freaking joke.

The one click win abilities have to go...

The one click win abilities have to go...

AKA - skill planes.

USF and Soviets are fine right now, UKF is pretty ridiculous with recent changes, and the OKW is a freaking joke.

USF is not fine.Rifle company is broken,riflemen vet bonuses are broken.

Yea I also stopped reading when he said the USF doesn't need smoke. I want to see his method for flanking 3-5 MG's all in buildings or bunkers along with kubels when the enemy doesn't have to do anything other than build MG-42's to shut down your entire early-midgame.

Using the VCOH argument is fucking retarded because the games are night and day different.

USF and Soviets are fine right now, UKF is pretty ridiculous with recent changes, and the OKW is a freaking joke.

Well, I haven't seen this at all in 1v1s period. I never see anyone build 3-5 MGs in a single game.

I on the other hand, have seen plenty of games where Riflemen chuck smoke blocking my only MG in the game and then rushing his entire blob through. How can you possibly crowd control then? Especially since its an important part of Ost to be able to do this in the first place.

I have detailed this earlier but I'll detail this again.

If I saw someone build 3-5 MGs in a single game - two things can happen

a) They're spread all across the map - in that case, deal with it by flanks and nades. If you go Armour, then Assault Engies can work too.
b) They're supporting each other - Because of this, MGs inherently can't push or creep quickly enough to stop you to get M20s and Stuarts and because he's got an army of MGs, he doesn't have the AT power or snares to deal with any vehicle you bring up.

While the armour game is very different between VCoH and CoH2, the infantry game is, by and large the same.

I have a big problem with your standard rifle units getting smoke. If it was something like LT and Captain getting it, then fine... But if every infantry unit has an "I win" button against an MG, it makes it entirely pointless to build an MG in the first place and Ost goes from crowd-control faction to no crowd control faction.

Especially considering the state of riflemen at the moment, this is a huge problem.

Other than that, tbh, I have no big problems with USF.

Overlapping fields of fire, mines, rifle nades, mortars, snipers, etc can fight rifle blobs if you have perfect positioning.

Overlapping fields of fire, mines, rifle nades, mortars, snipers, etc can fight rifle blobs if you have perfect positioning.

Smoke negates snipers, mortars are woefully unreliable against moving units like rifles, rifle nades are plausible, but if you have 5 rifle squads throwing smoke simultaneously, then its impossible to deal with. + Rifle

Mines are plausible but Wehr is just about as much active crowd control as it is passive.

I'm not saying that its impossible to deal with it, it is just really difficult, especially when it doesn't take ages to build 5 rifle squads in earlygame but in order to build the counters/get muni, it takes a whole lot of the game. And, as you said, it also requires perfect positioning. Keep in mind that even then, you don't guarantee squad wipes.

I have beaten back rifle smoke pushes in the past, but it required a lot of MG micro from me, and an opponent, who, admittingly, was a bit inept at attacking.

See when the mainline unit gets an "I win" button against crowd control - it can only lead to one thing - blobbing. I'm perfectly fine with Ami Shock units such as LTs and Captains getting smoke, but rifles getting smoke is simply crazy.

Keep in mind that, if my MG gets flanked and killed, I'd actually think "Well Played opponent" even in the state rifles are in atm. But if it comes to blob->smoke, I feel cheesed, my POV tho.

_____________________

(And even then, my point that you don't need smoke to deal with MGs still stands - why you need your mainline to have easily deployable shot blockers I have no idea, I reckon its bad design and is simply not necessary - my rank atm proves this, I don't play as much as I would like so I feel Im underrated atm - its kind of a similar problem to putting flamers on all of your mainline units.)

The idea of giving smoke to offices is really good. Too bad it likely won't change. Agree that at least in 1's and 2's it is too powerful to negate the one or two MGs completely. It is necessary in big team games to use smoke because you have way more units per square meters and so the front lines tend to be overlapping with MG field of fire. Having two squads that can toss smoke per USF army would at least help ISF not get completely rolled by MG spam in big team games. Would love someone who has relic's ear to suggest this

The idea of giving smoke to offices is really good. Too bad it likely won't change. Agree that at least in 1's and 2's it is too powerful to negate the one or two MGs completely. It is necessary in big team games to use smoke because you have way more units per square meters and so the front lines tend to be overlapping with MG field of fire. Having two squads that can toss smoke per USF army would at least help ISF not get completely rolled by MG spam in big team games. Would love someone who has relic's ear to suggest this

Thanks!

Should I make an extra thread about it? Or no

the only effective way to counter the blob is managing to get a panzerwerfer out without losing the whole map. from that point on his blob became useless

the only effective way to counter the blob is managing to get a panzerwerfer out without losing the whole map. from that point on his blob became useless

Oh noes, because I get a 1v1 late game unit, he has to play properly instead

But yeah, thats assuming you don't get rolled by armour and combined arms beforehand, and even the Panzerwefer can be rolled by an M10 for a positive trade to USF.....

Oh noes, because I get a 1v1 late game unit, he has to play properly instead

But yeah, thats assuming you don't get rolled by armour and combined arms beforehand, and even the Panzerwefer can be rolled by an M10 for a positive trade to USF.....

ye but the 25mins of suffering makes it worth when the first salvo hits directly in the blob

ye but the 25mins of suffering makes it worth when the first salvo hits directly in the blob

Bahahahaha yes It would be glorious :3

Nice post. I agree with you! I also find it strange that we have units that are good at all ranges (rifles) and have units that are better at long to mid ranges (grens). In VCoH I can clearly remember volksgrenadiers and grenadiers winning at long to medium range and riflemen completely winning at close range and having a chance at medium range. Why haven't they implemented such a system in CoH2? It still wonders me every time I play.

From when rifles win long range vs greens ?
Vet 0 both

I've been flanking MGs all the time without smoke as soviets and USF. It really is not needed.

it's needed vs good players

period

it's needed vs good players

period

Leave him he never played vs a good wermaht player thet spam mgs in biuldings ... even smoke wont help there ...

On the flip side, it is far easier to sneak up on an MG because you didn't see a flank coming due to truesight than it was in VCoH, thereby increasing the chance of squadwipe.

I've been flanking MGs all the time without smoke as soviets and USF. It really is not needed.

I can't imagine my life without rifle smoke. Smoke is life, smoke is love.

Leave him he never played vs a good wermaht player thet spam mgs in biuldings ... even smoke wont help there ...

This pesky mg in building Spam! Better try to bruteforce them out it instead of capping the whole map with your superior capping Power ( which increases as you tech) or go they P2w way and pick rifle commander

Leave him he never played vs a good wermaht player thet spam mgs in biuldings ... even smoke wont help there ...

Name one map where you don't have enough shotblockers to deal with mgs in buildings, Semois, Ango, you had ppl killing mgs in vcoh all day long. Ditto for Langres.

The only 1v1 map I see has problems is Minsk Pocket although I never play that map because its a terrible, boring 1v1 map which is too big and too linear.

USF sacrifices a mortar for smoke on rifles. (Before you say it, they sacrifice a sniper and doctrinal arty for the Pack Howitzer.)

If they smoke an area have you tried moving back to another prepared firing position? They'll have smoked for nothing.

I also recommend wire, everywehr.

IMO minus flamethrowers (OP!) Rifles are perfect balance wise, underperforming units should be changed to counter them if required.