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Counter PzIV rush with what?

25 Jun 2013, 11:32 AM
#1
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 394

Anyone mind telling me how to counter PzIV's this patch? They take no damage from Guards, AT Guns take about five shots to kill them. They beat T34's, T70's, SU76's and SU85 by circle strafing it.

I have tried going support building and getting two AT Guns to back up my Conscripts until I can hold off for an SU85, but I simply cant wait that long, I lose total map control and he can just spam the hell out of PZIV's and win the game.

The only viable counter is an Zis AT Gun and that is a soft counter at best for the moment.

I can't help but think since the P4 has been buffed, it's way too good for the price and for how early it comes. It has to be a German T4 unit, not T3 that's just stupid. It's a heavy tank at the moment that counters all Soviet Units.

Who knows what to do to beat them that doesnt rely on my opponent making a mistake???
25 Jun 2013, 11:41 AM
#2
avatar of NorfolkNClue

Posts: 391

can you not ram it with T34 and finish it off with AT nades/ZiS?
25 Jun 2013, 11:51 AM
#3
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 394

can you not ram it with T34 and finish it off with AT nades/ZiS?

Ramming doesn't immobilise it, it just damages gun or engine it can still reverse away and then PGrens with Shreks have a free kill. Besides, T34 get fausted the by Grens straight away anyway so they cant ram. That is not really an option.
25 Jun 2013, 11:55 AM
#4
avatar of NorfolkNClue

Posts: 391

I'm not experienced enough at the game really, but if you've let the other player build up that many counters, you've already lost map control haven't you?
25 Jun 2013, 12:03 PM
#5
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1820 | Subs: 2

plant mines? Mines role is always to defend and repel certain points. a well placed mine will get you the p4 down. Ofc i mean with the support of other AT units as following.
25 Jun 2013, 12:04 PM
#6
avatar of Kuruz

Posts: 14

If you do have guards wait until he comes in to kill your su-85 and button his ass and and finish him off with the su-85 or any anti tank you might have.

Also if you know he likes to rush you get some mines and bait him back.
25 Jun 2013, 12:18 PM
#7
avatar of heeroduo

Posts: 144

AT nades?


hm... Can button of Guards stop them?
25 Jun 2013, 12:43 PM
#8
avatar of NorfolkNClue

Posts: 391

No, but it will pin him in place.
25 Jun 2013, 12:46 PM
#9
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 394

I'm not experienced enough at the game really, but if you've let the other player build up that many counters, you've already lost map control haven't you?

Build up that many counters? Grens are T1 units, PGrens are T2 units and a P4 is a T3 unit. Hardly what I would call a build up of units after losing map control? Map control is usually 50/50 when the P4 comes out anyway and as soon as it hits the field its a massive game changer.

Is anyone else having problems with the P4 or is it just me?
25 Jun 2013, 12:48 PM
#10
avatar of GreenDevil

Posts: 394

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2013, 12:03 PMSpanky
plant mines? Mines role is always to defend and repel certain points. a well placed mine will get you the p4 down. Ofc i mean with the support of other AT units as following.


Yeah I guess mines could help, but a mine again will only damage the engine, it will still be able to reverse back, but I think that would give me the best chance to try and kill it.

Soviet mines are cheaper 30 muni, but the fucking things only take about 1/4 of health off a Half Track let alone a P4.
25 Jun 2013, 12:49 PM
#11
avatar of Shazz

Posts: 194

Uh, really?

Button + any AT.

AT nade + any AT.

Mine + any AT.

SU85 absolutely ruins T3 tanks especially combined with any of the above, SU76 is not terrible either though a bit luck dependent. Key to both is using their long range, though I suspect that's a bit obvious.

Personally I haven't had any issues with it, but maybe I haven't come up against a Pz4 pro yet.
25 Jun 2013, 13:00 PM
#12
avatar of Marcus2389
Developer Relic Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2

Vs a decent player it comes down to micro, which I like tbh. But they are a strong and solid unit, as they are supposed to be I'd say :) Button + any form of AT is indeed quite good, even if it should be mentioned how effection smoke grenades are to save German vehicles from any possible threat. :)
25 Jun 2013, 13:16 PM
#13
avatar of Adder

Posts: 78

SU-85 will kill a P4 in about 5 hits to the front. If you have an AT gun as well you can probably kill it in less than 3 hits each, which is usually fast enough before it can reverse away if you have the advantage of surprise.

You won't get the kill against good players, though. The important thing is to force it away quickly with minimal losses so you can take map control.
25 Jun 2013, 13:22 PM
#14
avatar of NorfolkNClue

Posts: 391

Good point that - while killing it is best, simply not allowing the other player to bring it bear where he wants is next best.

Anyway. I've had problems with lack of Soviet AT myself. (c.f. another thread).
25 Jun 2013, 13:36 PM
#15
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
AT Nade or Ram and finish off with ZiS.

Really not an issue.
25 Jun 2013, 13:57 PM
#16
avatar of shifty

Posts: 14

Pz4 appears earlier than you can get t34 or su85
Its machineguns are absolutely deadly, infantry does not survive near

only idea is to slow it down with AT nade (which means my T3 building will be even more late) and finish with Zis AT gun. Both will slow me down early game.

Ostwind is horribly powerful as well. Pair of them killed 3! retreating! full! squads. I started retreating before i lost any men. They followed and disintegrated me.
25 Jun 2013, 14:00 PM
#17
avatar of NorfolkNClue

Posts: 391

http://www.coh2.org/topic/3246/soviet-at-help-needed

GreenDevil, read this thread, there's some helpful stuff.
25 Jun 2013, 14:00 PM
#18
avatar of Blovski

Posts: 480

^

PzIV shouldn't be getting out earlier than the T-34 given it's more pricey?
25 Jun 2013, 14:17 PM
#19
avatar of Adder

Posts: 78

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2013, 13:57 PMshifty
Pz4 appears earlier than you can get t34 or su85
Its machineguns are absolutely deadly, infantry does not survive near

I don't have the exact fuel numbers with me, but I'm 95% sure that both the T-34 and SU-85 will come out for the same or less fuel than the P4. It's about 220 fuel, I think.


Ostwind is horribly powerful as well. Pair of them killed 3! retreating! full! squads. I started retreating before i lost any men. They followed and disintegrated me.

If your opponent has built two Ostwinds something has gone horribly wrong. You either have way too many infantry and/or you lost the early game pretty badly.

I suspect that a scenario where your opponent "rushes" to high tech units and is crushing you is likely due to a poor early game, in which the question should not be "what do I do about two Ostwinds" and more "what do I do about grenadiers and MG42s?"

If you can post a replay we can better assist you.
25 Jun 2013, 14:27 PM
#20
avatar of Shazz

Posts: 194

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2013, 13:57 PMshifty
Pz4 appears earlier than you can get t34 or su85
Its machineguns are absolutely deadly, infantry does not survive near

only idea is to slow it down with AT nade (which means my T3 building will be even more late) and finish with Zis AT gun. Both will slow me down early game.

Ostwind is horribly powerful as well. Pair of them killed 3! retreating! full! squads. I started retreating before i lost any men. They followed and disintegrated me.


That has much less to do with the Ostwind and more to how messed up retreat defensive bonuses are at the moment. Any AI thing can shred retreating squads right now. Grab a KV8 and watch as it destroys any squads even retreating in seconds.

Back on topic, Pz4 is 115 fuel after teching to and building T3. It's not exactly a spammable unit unless you are letting your opponent win handily. To put it in perspective, a CoH1 PANTHER was 110 fuel (though admittedly much more MP). A standard income of maybe +30 or so means at best they can make 1 Pz4 every 4 minutes or so minutes. Starve them off from fuel and you won't see more than 1.
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