OKW Sturm Pioneers Buff

Given the recent buffs to both USF & UKF, OKW is in a rather questionable spot with a cheap but somewhat ineffective infantry squad and a good early game but poor scaling and high veterancy combat engineer squad. This forces the OKW player to either rely on call in infantry to bear the brunt of fighting until Flak HQ is up or armor support. While not certainly unplayable, a Sturmpionier buff would expand the options of a OKW player instead of relying on the above. Hopefully reducing the use of call ins as support and allowing the vanilla OKW to support itself from the middle to long game. TL;DR at bottom

Reducing the Sturmpionier veterancy requirement by X%.
Even as a fan of their veterancy, it takes quite a bit to get them at veterancy 3 even after constantly fighting in brutal combat.

Move STG44s to upgrade and replace with MP40s. Keep the same stats as the current STG44s act like SMGs.

STG44s become a upgrade after a Tier 1 (2?) for 90 munitions.

• STG44s excel at midrange, moderate at short, and decent at long. (Still losing to rifle equipped infantry)
  
• Beating any SMG unit at mid range and doing heavy damage if a SMG decides to charge without using cover or such.
  
• Stats unknown but enough to compete with Riflemen with BAR(s) at mid range and IS at this range as well.
  

Sturmpioneers would be better scaling in mid-late game with becoming a credible source of damage and protecting Volksgrenadiers, flanks, and other key areas. Synergizing more with the mainly long range oriented OKW squads. This would expand the OKW units and help with the current state of durable, high damaging Allied infantry. It would also still force the OKW player to make decision in concern of buying STG44s to help in infantry engagements, Volksgrenadiers for more anti-tank support, mines, etc. Hopefully to encourage more Sturmpionier play as they would have more use in the combat role and find themselves even more at home in infantry support of heavy armor play.

On the other hand, Allied commanders would have to be more careful with combating Sturmpioneers with STG44s as being credible threats outside close range would expand their threat range. For those concerned with the Sturmpioneers spam. They're costly in MP and munitions, lack any anti-tank capability, and can't counter garrisons without having a soft counter in form of concussive grenades.

TL;DR
Reduce Veterancy Requirement by X%
Move STG44s as a upgrade and replace with MP40s with no stat changes
STG44s upgrade cost 60-90 munitions. Excel at mid range, poor at long, good at close.

I think a slight buff to the Volkgrenadiers anti-infantry capabilities and a slight increase to their manpower might work well and not change the game much

Moving around their vet bonuses could fix their veterancy woes. They don't get accuracy bonuses until vet 4-5, and vet 3 just gives them utility. Move Concussive Grenade to vet 1 as well, move 20% of vet 5's accuracy to vet 2, move the 30% cooldown to vet 3. Should let them exist much smoother then.

I like this idea. It also will allow OKW to get back some of the faction flavor its been missing.

However, I don't think that veterancy changes will be needed, as current flamer sturmpioneers can vet fairly well if given a chance. New STG44 sturms would be able to kill enemies t a faster rate, and would thus be able to vet faster.

Sounds very good, they problem is Sturmpios have no animations for MP40, so relic won't implement them.

In order to still makes those changes possible, you need to replace the upgrade with something like combat training, which just increases the DPS on the levels you suggested.

Sounds very good, they problem is Sturmpios have no animations for MP40, so relic won't implement them.

In order to still makes those changes possible, you need to replace the upgrade with something like combat training, which just increases the DPS on the levels you suggested.

You can easily add the animation to the model in question just by dumping the MP 40 into the abp file. You can already do it in the mod tools. I've got PGs carrying FG42s despite the fact it makes no sense.

As for the changes, the weapon idea would be neat. More MP40s are always good and further states what role the sturmpioneers should be fighting at early-game.

It's definitely key that SPs get weapon stats that can stand a chance against BARs at least mid-range though. BARs hitting the field darn well obsolete SPs.

And move Incendiary Grenade to them from Volks pls

the problem with sturms is they are the starting unit (free unit) so it cant be to powerfull from the get go... thats why they were nerfed couple of times... and the combo with the kubel was too strong early on vs usf.

the solution would be to make the sturms better only if volks are going to be the starting unit so you would have to pay for them

you could make them the copy of pgrens in stats as well as the price of 340 mp (and to make it so they can be made only after one truck is set up so they dont come out to soon).

even without any buffs one thing is for sure... their exp needed to vet up should be looked at (mainly the exp needed from vet 2 to vet 3)

the problem with sturms is they are the starting unit (free unit) so it cant be to powerfull from the get go... thats why they were nerfed couple of times... and the combo with the kubel was too strong early on vs usf.

the solution would be to make the sturms better only if volks are going to be the starting unit so you would have to pay for them

you could make them the copy of pgrens in stats as well as the price of 340 mp (and to make it so they can be made only after one truck is set up so they dont come out to soon).

Think it had more to do with timing, like that terrible time Shocks were CP 1.

Also I'm pretty sure a PG-copy for the same price would be overperforming, since PGs can't build and repair. Wehrmacht players already say "PGs are good only for Schrecks" plenty enough.

They need better veterancy or quicker vet, even rear echelons scale better with their 5 men and added accuracy (most 30min games Sturms will never get to vet 4-5 anyway).

the problem with sturms is they are the starting unit (free unit)

you're wrong, they are not free. OKW have a lower starting MP because they have sturms as a starting unit.

you're wrong, they are not free. OKW have a lower starting MP because they have sturms as a starting unit.

Additionally, even if they started with a Volks squad instead of an SP and were compensated manpower-wise similarly...well, nothing stops you from getting an SP immediately anyway which doesn't really change much from starting SP and building a Volks.

They need better veterancy or quicker vet, even rear echelons scale better with their 5 men and added accuracy (most 30min games Sturms will never get to vet 4-5 anyway).



you're wrong, they are not free. OKW have a lower starting MP because they have sturms as a starting unit.

if the rifles were the starting unit the usf would have lower starting mp right?

would you say than you payed for that rifle squad?

imo if i didnt give mp for it i think its a free unit

Additionally, even if they started with a Volks squad instead of an SP and were compensated manpower-wise similarly...well, nothing stops you from getting an SP immediately anyway which doesn't really change much from starting SP and building a Volks.

thats why i wrote one truck needs to be set up first

thats why i wrote one truck needs to be set up first

I can get what you're saying, but I'd definitely be opposed to it. UCs being unable to repair until UKF hits T1 is bad enough, even if OKW would start with the fuel for it - their trucks do give them an incentive to try to build outside of their base instead of setting up ASAP, and I would not want to feel forced to set up faster so I can get my Kubel repaired.

thats why i wrote one truck needs to be set up first

SP would not be changed in any way in the early game with the proposed changes above. They would still be the same in early game, just with MP40s to more accurately represent what their current STG44s behave like. Short range weapons.

I also put the STG44 upgrade would require a tier to become available and their MP cost would be unchanged as the STG44 would cost munitions to upgrade. This would relegate it to a midgame purchase unless rushed. Purchasing the upgrade would leave OKW more vulnerable to light vehicle play as they would lack panzerschreck(s) on Volksgrenadiers while gaining more anti-infantry power. Again, you would have to think of what you want.

Basically you would trade MP for munitions to get a unit that would become more combat effective for the mid game. I would recommend having their STG44s to be more powerful compared to PGs as OKW lacks main strong anti-infantry squad compared to OST(Volksgrenadiers). Also adding more flavor with a weak anti-tank squad backed by strong Engineer squad.

I'd say adjust stats for MP40 and STG-44 across the board. STG feels too much like an SMG in both OKW and Ost rather than an assault rifle. Its really good you brought up this point.

The MP40, which was a widespread weapon in the German army, is seen less in the game than the STG-44 which was only starting to come out in 1944. It proved itself in mid and short range in a way that it currently doesn't in game.

This way, we could also fix PGs for Ost so they actually have a viable infantry assault force as well while not being too ridiculous.

I would recommend having their STG44s to be more powerful compared to PGs as OKW lacks main strong anti-infantry squad compared to OST(Volksgrenadiers). Also adding more flavor with a weak anti-tank squad backed by strong Engineer squad.

While unfortunately logical since it's probably going to be more munitions worth than the 20 MP PGs cost over SPs, I'm pretty sure that would cause numerous Wehrmacht players to have an aneurysm.

I like this idea . +1

I also think that the concussive grenade should be swapped for either an AT grenade, regular grenade, or smoke grenade.