Remove ML-20 from the game

Actually Relic specifically stated that the Russian ML20 was designed to counter heavy tanks. They argued that the elephant was specifically made vulnerable to this kind of unit so that the Allied factions had a chance late game.

B4 is so impotent right now it makes Penals look useful.

When was that stated? Back then pquemsieh said shocks in m3 counter pio spam?

Makes a lot of sense to counter elephants with since Jäger Armour hard counters howitzers.

B4 was abused when it could one shot any tank without warning. I'm glad those times are over,now it one shots mediums still with direct shots, but at gun wall is simply more cost efficient and doesn't force you in a doctrine.

When was that stated? Back then pquemsieh said shocks in m3 counter pio spam?

Pretty much.
Additional hilarity was in the fact that in the same thread people discussed reckon+stuka in the ele doc vs arty as well

Pretty much.
Additional hilarity was in the fact that in the same thread people discussed reckon+stuka in the ele doc vs arty as well

We are Internet warriors that share old troll war stories. I spend too much time here

Hello Op, the unit is fine

2v2 mode is most stupid mode in this game.

this is a l2p issue

It's not bad but it should be better than LeFH.
Currently it's not.

Why? They are both 600mp units. They should be equal in cost efficiency but different. 105 firing faster, ML-20 doing more damage.

The only problem I see with the ML-20 is the Recon + Dive bomb combination. A first start (at least for 1v1) would be to take away either the recon or dive bomb from the Elefant and CAS doctrine respectively.

Why? They are both 600mp units. They should be equal in cost efficiency but different. 105 firing faster, ML-20 doing more damage.

Don't know, why PaK40 is better then ZiS-3 for the same cost?
Why grens are better then cons?
Why pwerfer is better then katy(this will get hot )
Why ost sniper is better then sov sniper?
Why mortar is?
Why ost mht is better then us mht?

The list goes on and on for same role, same cost units of old armies.

The only problem I see with the ML-20 is the Recon + Dive bomb combination. A first start (at least for 1v1) would be to take away either the recon or dive bomb from the Elefant and CAS doctrine respectively.

The problem isn't as much stuka+reckon, but these two being in meta doctrines while ML-20 is pretty hipster stuff.

this is a l2p issue

Against a CAS commander it isn't at all. You literally can't reasonably field enough AA to prevent recon plane from revealing howitzer then the Stuka dive bomber can't be shot down so you are screwed and entire large segment of multiple commanders is erased which is dumb. There should be counter play upon counter play to all units and strategies. For instance shocks melt infantry so you can counter by suppressing them and keeping them afar with MG's and maybe get a sniper to cause MP drain on shocks. That opens up options to SU who can get an M3 and try to dive in from flank on sniper and MG if nearby there isn't Gren to snare the M3 and so on and so forth as counters continue down the line and players are rewarded for anticipating enemy counters.

Enter CAS,
1. Call recon plane after first howitzer barrage reveals there is an ML-20.
2. If necessary use fuel to munition conversion for enough munitions to call in Stuka strike
3. Profit!
And what is the counter play available to soviets if they anticipate this....none! except don't build any ML-20's. I have no problem with CAS being a doctrine that is good at hard countering artillery so first instance make its strike more vulnerable to AA fire so an SU player can have a chance to shoot it down or make it only clear the crew and take down weapon health 60-70%. Current state is indefensible

So what do you think Hannibal (and everybody)? Chengeles less damage to the ML-20 (not the crew), or my idea of camouflage, or something else?

Actually off map artillery to static artillery is fair exchange. 150 muni = 600 man. additionally, You can recrew and repair sometimes. Eat some enemy ammo using it. It's success if your enemy use offmap arty twice on same target.

Actually off map artillery to static artillery is fair exchange. 150 muni = 600 man. additionally, You can recrew and repair sometimes. Eat some enemy ammo using it. It's success if your enemy use offmap arty twice on same target.

Please show me how you repair and recrew dive bombed ML-20

Also, 1 muni is worth about 1.5 menpower.

Please show me how you repair and recrew dive bombed ML-20

Also, 1 muni is worth about 1.5 menpower.

I thought 1 muni worth about 2.5 manpower. I believe you.

I thought 1 muni worth about 2.5 manpower. I believe you.

More importantly, you forgot what arty have cap. Which reduces the size you army and inflow mp too.
15 for one gun is too much.

that childish "remove it cause it sucks"-mentality...
just leave it in the game until its issues are adressed? why is there one of these retarded threads per week?

Actually off map artillery to static artillery is fair exchange. 150 muni = 600 man. additionally, You can recrew and repair sometimes. Eat some enemy ammo using it. It's success if your enemy use offmap arty twice on same target.

Cool, so when do I get my 300 ammo ability that destroys a full-health Kingtiger without the possibility of counterplay?

Giving protection to the gun so it survives at 5% health when "destroyed" would go a long way to helping deal with off-maps.

From patchnotes dated "29-10-2014"

"Stationary Howitzers

Our goal was to increase the durability of the howitzer without making the unit too resilient versus off-map abilities. Values greater than 400 meant howitzers could withstand attacks from off-maps such as the JU-87 Stuka dive bomber. We found this undesirable as it made destroying the unit too difficult given the fact that it is typically placed well behind enemy front lines. The slight increase to health will help in some scenarios, particularly in cases when off-maps such as the Light Artillery Barrage or tanks are used to counter this heavy weapon. We will monitor the performance of this unit post change and take action as needed.

Health from 350 to 400"


So everything is Fine, Stuka countering ML-20 is perfectly Balanced

So what do you think Hannibal (and everybody)? Chengeles less damage to the ML-20 (not the crew), or my idea of camouflage, or something else?

I think 10% health left after a Stuka strike would be reasonable. Wipe the crew. That way if an Ostheer player really wants to he can hit the ML20 every few minutes and ensure that the crew doesn't stay vetted up for very long. Also if Soviet didn't want to lose his physical gun he would have to rush to repair it. Then finally even then soviets might lose his artillery piece anyway since an ally could follow it up with a cheaper off map artillery strike or use a Stuka/Panzerwerfer