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[Ost/Sov] [All modes] [ISU/Elefant docs OHKO Fixed Arty]

Is this a valid problem [Irrespective of whether the solution is a good one or not]
Option Distribution Votes
38%
62%
Is the solution good? [Needless to say, only vote here if you voted yes above]
Option Distribution Votes
38%
58%
4%
Total votes: 50
Vote VOTE! Vote ABSTAIN
21 Oct 2015, 18:13 PM
#1
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

Hi all,

So, here goes:

Problem: The ISU and Elefant doctrines both possess their factions' heavy bomb strikes (IL2 Bomb strike/Stuka Dive Bomb), which completely hard-counter artillery. By my rhinking this is unfair, as poor mobility and the need to stay stationary is reqquired of both ISU and Elefant, making the fixed artillery piece a natural counter, but the heavy bomb strikes completely negate this. Particularly egregious when combined with spotter planes.

Suggestion: Remove either recon or bomb strike abilities from elefant/ISU doctrines.
21 Oct 2015, 18:13 PM
#2
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

Naturally, I am abstaining from voting, so please vote guys
21 Oct 2015, 18:59 PM
#3
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

Artillery doesn't even counter these units anyway. Even well timed barrages will only manage to do 200 or 400 damage at most, which isn't really dangerous to these high health units. So it's doesn't really matter.
21 Oct 2015, 19:03 PM
#4
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Artillery doesn't even counter these units anyway. Even well timed barrages will only manage to do 200 or 400 damage at most, which isn't really dangerous to these high health units. So it's doesn't really matter.


Exactly. It has been suggested in the past but only a handful of commanders have been change after release (Sturmtiger > PIV and Irregulars > AT partisans)
21 Oct 2015, 19:10 PM
#5
avatar of TheSleep3r

Posts: 670

That feel when Relic said ML-20 is a counter to Elefant before the release :snfPeter:
21 Oct 2015, 19:14 PM
#6
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
I mean if they didnt counter artillery pieces then they would be overpriced. Coh2 ignores a lot of common sense, but I think heavy payload strikes such as these SHOULD destroy these in one strike.
21 Oct 2015, 19:26 PM
#7
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

in a way, making them relocate is what is needed. Relocate them, and/or the inevitable wall of paks etc. Make the beast move, and its much more vulnerable to flanking. Which is why the option ought to be there IMO
21 Oct 2015, 19:28 PM
#8
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

I mean if they didnt counter artillery pieces then they would be overpriced. Coh2 ignores a lot of common sense, but I think heavy payload strikes such as these SHOULD destroy these in one strike.


Exactly. I'm not advocating a change to the heavy strikes at all. They can and should OHKO fixed arty. What I object to is doctrine combinations which include ISU/Ele AND strikes (and recon too, in Ostheer's case iirc)
21 Oct 2015, 20:00 PM
#9
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
How would you change it? Are you advocating that these abilities be separated into different doctrines?
21 Oct 2015, 20:09 PM
#10
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

Just that they should not be in the ISU/Ele doctrines. Give these docs something else.

Or at least not with recon in the mix. I mean, sneaking near enough my fixed arty to get LoS to call in a bomber; fine. Spending 80 muni extra and calling in bomber at first pass of the spotter? No thanks.
Hat
21 Oct 2015, 21:12 PM
#11
avatar of Hat

Posts: 166

That feel when Relic said ML-20 is a counter to Elefant before the release :snfPeter:


Did they really?
22 Oct 2015, 08:39 AM
#12
avatar of TheSleep3r

Posts: 670

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Oct 2015, 21:12 PMHat


Did they really?


I remember they did :snfQuinn: they said something like 'Ml-20 is the perfect counter to the Elegant, because it's so slow'. They said 'Soviets are the faction of hard counters', this is why we had to deal with shitty binary structure of old soviet faction for 2 years :snfBarton:

(I could be mistaken, I wasn't paying attention to Coh2 at that time)
22 Oct 2015, 08:42 AM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

I mean if they didnt counter artillery pieces then they would be overpriced. Coh2 ignores a lot of common sense, but I think heavy payload strikes such as these SHOULD destroy these in one strike.

You talk about bombing runs yes?

I don't think people have problem with them delivering one hit kills on arty, what is problematic here is the EASE to deliver the killing strike because of the reckon planes.
22 Oct 2015, 08:47 AM
#14
avatar of Kreatiir

Posts: 2819

It's not a problem because arty does not counter these units.
22 Oct 2015, 08:57 AM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

It's not a problem because arty does not counter these units.

Well, it counters walls of support teams that protect it from infantry and tank assaults.
You aren't really assault focused once you go for ele or ISU, you mostly will camp on 2 VPs with some harrasement on 3rd.
22 Oct 2015, 09:30 AM
#16
avatar of Kreatiir

Posts: 2819

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Oct 2015, 08:57 AMKatitof

Well, it counters walls of support teams that protect it from infantry and tank assaults.
You aren't really assault focused once you go for ele or ISU, you mostly will camp on 2 VPs with some harrasement on 3rd.


I really don't think the elephant of it's doctrines are a problem man. You barely see them ingame and when the unit appears, just go full ATgun, zooke's, ...
I don't see a problem with this commander.

You've got a point though.
22 Oct 2015, 09:37 AM
#17
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



I really don't think the elephant of it's doctrines are a problem man. You barely see them ingame and when the unit appears, just go full ATgun, zooke's, ...
I don't see a problem with this commander.

You've got a point though.

Actually, just recently while playing 2s I've faced Ele vs very campy players.
Arty and indirect fire was exactly what we needed, I've made a horrible mistake of thinking B4 will be useful instead of katy spam just because of reckon+stuka.

I didn't needed that B4 to counter ele, I needed it for entrenched MGs and PaKs and MG bunkers on top of all of that that prevented any non suicidal assault. I couldn't do it, because of reckon+stuka combo, it was a long, good and exhausting game, so muni wasn't an issue for anyone.
22 Oct 2015, 09:46 AM
#18
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3

Thise change would affect Ostheer more because you see ML20, B4 more often than the LefH.
Also there are more OP commanders balance wise (Vanguard, Rifle Company) that would rather needs adjustments than Recon & Bomb combo.
22 Oct 2015, 10:36 AM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Well, when you see LefH, it usually have a free reign unless you actually rush it.

B4/ML-20 is scrap metal 20 seconds after the barrage(ok, tad longer if you build it asap at 8cp).

Speaking of vanguard, it got heavy nerfs on preview with commandos and cros.
Rifle company the same with just vet1 now and flamers changed from AI weapon to almost anti garrison exclusive one, they still will be the way to go, but they aren't really IWINs they used to be.

I don't mind bombing runs, but the effort to pull them off on 600mp doctrinal piece should be more then two clicks you can do nothing about to prevent/react/respond to.
22 Oct 2015, 11:10 AM
#20
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1

as long as there exists something like hawker typhoons and croc in the same doc i wont comment in here
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