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Jagdpanzer IV Penetration

18 Oct 2015, 02:27 AM
#21
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 928

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Oct 2015, 20:55 PMKatitof
Lets increase T34/85 range to 60 and pen to 200-180 for the same reasons in relation to SU-85!
After all they had the same gun!


And lets have the SU-76 get the same penetration as the SU-85. Because they don't even use the same gun. :P

Regarding OP, maybe a penn buff could be okay, but maybe increase in fuel cost or decrease in ROF? to compensate? I mean it is already a solid vehicle as it is.
18 Oct 2015, 06:09 AM
#22
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954

Yes, although I'm not sure if that's relevant. Giving it more penetration isn't exactly going to make it overpowering in the early-game when the best-armoured vehicle around is a Stuart.

Yes, but it can be circle-strafed (not that it should be), is completely useless against infantry and (ignoring its teching costs) is rather expensive relative to other medium tanks and tank destroyers.

Long story short - this change would only boost the Jagdpanzer's performance against a few Allied units like the Churchill. Its effectiveness against medium tanks would be more-or-less unchanged. And keep in mind that, with the OKW fuel penality, this vehicle costs as much as two StuGs (against, ignoring teching costs).


No, the problem is the Churchill, not the JP4. JP4's are are probably the best TD in the game, especially when vetted.
18 Oct 2015, 06:19 AM
#23
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

The jpz4 is the perfect medium tank killer. It have the second best accuracy out of all the TD, behind the firefly. It also have just enough penetration to always penetrate the majority of allied tank. It's also got the best armor of all the TD combined with a small size (18)

If you want the penetration to go up, the jpz4 accuracy will need a massive nerf to make it less effective against medium.
18 Oct 2015, 07:40 AM
#24
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

This is the precise kind of speculative noob thread that Relic seems to base their balancing on whenever they put unnecessary/over nerfs/buffs into the game. Just STAHP!

Anyone who has ever actually played with or against the JPIV knows it is fine. Anyone who reads stats but doesn't play says this kind of nonsense.
18 Oct 2015, 09:22 AM
#25
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

jpIV is fine. if anything it's OP because of the cloak.
18 Oct 2015, 09:49 AM
#26
avatar of Jadek

Posts: 80

Fine as it is. Balance > history.
18 Oct 2015, 11:57 AM
#27
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 928

This is the precise kind of speculative noob thread that Relic seems to base their balancing on whenever they put unnecessary/over nerfs/buffs into the game. Just STAHP!

Anyone who has ever actually played with or against the JPIV knows it is fine. Anyone who reads stats but doesn't play says this kind of nonsense.


You're missing the crux of OP's argument.

The argument is historical guns and consistency, not "Jp4 is UP".

It can be compensated by increased reload time, reduced accuracy etc.

(FYI, other things should be reworked like kubels should get one shotted by ATGs and SU-76 should have better AI performance and worse AT performance, as history goes)

And I really don't buy the balance > history argument if it goes too far. If you want to see 4-5 SU-76s fighting and killing KTs frontally (where you can in CoH2), go and play DOW2 instead. Of course you have to try to stick to the history to some extent.
18 Oct 2015, 12:29 PM
#28
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

When it comes it coutners are mediums.
At vet it get magic and can disaper in fron of enemy tanks

In 3+ vet it kills heavies reliably and if you build it when mediums come it will have vet 3 when is2 comes.


I think it is one those OKW units that are fine
18 Oct 2015, 18:20 PM
#29
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2015, 11:57 AMhubewa


You're missing the crux of OP's argument.

The argument is historical guns and consistency, not "Jp4 is UP".

It can be compensated by increased reload time, reduced accuracy etc.

(FYI, other things should be reworked like kubels should get one shotted by ATGs and SU-76 should have better AI performance and worse AT performance, as history goes)

And I really don't buy the balance > history argument if it goes too far. If you want to see 4-5 SU-76s fighting and killing KTs frontally (where you can in CoH2), go and play DOW2 instead. Of course you have to try to stick to the history to some extent.


Historical accuracy is a huge can of worms that is better left unopened. Is it historically accurate for light machine guns to appear from thin air? Or for snipers to survive direct hits from rocket artillery? Did engineers whip out welding torches and repair catistrophic armour damage on the fly?

I think I've seen more vet 5 JagdPanzer than any vet 3 or 5 for any other unit when playing and watching matches.
18 Oct 2015, 18:35 PM
#30
avatar of Shanka

Posts: 323

Okay let's make COH2 historical, what about getting 3 t3476 for the price of one because t34 horde were historical:snfPeter:

What about putting young soldiers who barely knows how to shoot in volks squad, that's historical:snfPeter:

Hey let's the engine of tiger and panthers broke down in the middle of nowhere for no reason because it's historical :snfPeter:

Hey usf need an airbone auto attack from the start because that's historical :snfPeter:

coh2 is just an historical correct game from the war it describe, historical reason and balance should not be mixed like you want,

The JP4 is one of the only things that perfoms great in OKW

Don't buff something that don't need a buff
18 Oct 2015, 20:05 PM
#31
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 928

I'm not asking for a buff, im looking at how it can be tweaked. Because the JP4 certainly doesn't need a buff.

Historical accuracy for infantry squads is impossible because if there was that we would be running around with 10 man squads.

However, for Tank combat, its certainly possible. I don't see why historical accuracy can be maintained for tanks. so you think a pack of SU-76s taking out KTs from the front is reasonable for instance? There was a reason why the Sovs developed the SU-85 and SU-100.

I've seen many vet 3-5 JP4s in my time as well, doesn't mean that the unit can't be tweaked so its buffed in some aspects and nerfed in others to compensate.
18 Oct 2015, 20:07 PM
#32
avatar of momo4sho
Senior Caster Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 466 | Subs: 1

Remove Predator camo from the best tank destroyer in the game please. Being able to camo in and out during combat is absurdly broken in the hands of a good player.
18 Oct 2015, 20:16 PM
#33
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2015, 11:57 AMhubewa


You're missing the crux of OP's argument.

The argument is historical guns and consistency, not "Jp4 is UP".

It can be compensated by increased reload time, reduced accuracy etc.

(FYI, other things should be reworked like kubels should get one shotted by ATGs and SU-76 should have better AI performance and worse AT performance, as history goes)

And I really don't buy the balance > history argument if it goes too far. If you want to see 4-5 SU-76s fighting and killing KTs frontally (where you can in CoH2), go and play DOW2 instead. Of course you have to try to stick to the history to some extent.


If you don't buy the balance > history, then you should be really against the IR halftrack with x-ray vision (which exists only in comic books), cloaking JP4 (borrowed from Star Trek), PAK43 whose shells phase out of existence and then magically reappear to destroy Allied tanks (also borrowed from Star Trek).

Or is it that you just want to cherry pick the "historical" arguments....
18 Oct 2015, 22:37 PM
#34
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 928

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2015, 20:16 PMGrumpy


If you don't buy the balance > history, then you should be really against the IR halftrack with x-ray vision (which exists only in comic books), cloaking JP4 (borrowed from Star Trek), PAK43 whose shells phase out of existence and then magically reappear to destroy Allied tanks (also borrowed from Star Trek).

Or is it that you just want to cherry pick the "historical" arguments....


Okay yes, I actually am against all of the things that you've been listed. I just don't build or focus on them much because, as my playercard shows, I am primarily a 1v1 player.

Things that should be taken out of the game/changed IMO:
  • SU-76 Penn and AI - its too high, and the barrage is silly. It should be reworked to a light TD/long distance AI vehicle
  • Pennetration values depending on the gun the vehicle is using
  • IR Halftrack - whoever thought that was a good idea? How does it provide any real utility... OKW really doesn't need a vehicle like that in the game
  • Pak43 in its current form - Having a gun that ignores shotblockers is a bad idea and bullshit IMO, there are many ways to increase its usability. Maybe increase Weapon HP so the weapon doesn't get killed by one offmap? while making it as easy to decrew as it is currently? The Flak88 was perfectly fine in CoH1 and arty was an even bigger thing in that game.
  • Cloaking Jagdpanzer4 - Tank mechanics in CoH2 are not designed around any camo whatsoever. Fine, its easier to hide an ATG so I have no problems with ATGs cloaking and they run with a huge risk factor anyway but Jp4s really don't need cloaking


Probably name anything that isn't historically reasonable - especially when it comes to vehicles and I'd agree with you.

Infantry though... I know that squads are scaled down anyway compared to real life and it does come with risk/reward especially with weapon teams so a bit more artistic licence is allowed here.
18 Oct 2015, 23:57 PM
#35
avatar of F1sh

Posts: 521

It doesn't need a pen buff, it already pens every allied medium tank.
19 Oct 2015, 13:52 PM
#36
avatar of Blackart

Posts: 344

Yea remove the predator camo. It should be able to camo only when out of combat.
19 Oct 2015, 15:21 PM
#37
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

Damage boost it gains with vet when shooting out of camo should also be removed. This unit will receive no buffs, it will only be nerfed from here.

Sorry OP your suggestion is off the mark on this one.
19 Oct 2015, 15:33 PM
#38
avatar of Ace of Swords

Posts: 219

Not sure if these people are serious, you nerf JP (removing in combat camo is fine) and then how is OKW ever supposed to do anything? They are already the worst faction and are being carried by ISG which are getting fixed next patch.
19 Oct 2015, 15:39 PM
#39
avatar of Shanka

Posts: 323

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2015, 20:05 PMhubewa
I'm not asking for a buff, im looking at how it can be tweaked. Because the JP4 certainly doesn't need a buff.

Historical accuracy for infantry squads is impossible because if there was that we would be running around with 10 man squads.

However, for Tank combat, its certainly possible. I don't see why historical accuracy can be maintained for tanks. so you think a pack of SU-76s taking out KTs from the front is reasonable for instance? There was a reason why the Sovs developed the SU-85 and SU-100.

I've seen many vet 3-5 JP4s in my time as well, doesn't mean that the unit can't be tweaked so its buffed in some aspects and nerfed in others to compensate.


You know it's impossible to get historical tank combat, you know that would mean that at the first penetrating shell the tank is "dead" ?

I understand that you want the capacity of real tanks be transalted to the game but that impossible if we want to keep a viable gameplay for tanks
19 Oct 2015, 16:19 PM
#40
avatar of TaurusBully

Posts: 89

This is the precise kind of speculative noob thread that Relic seems to base their balancing on whenever they put unnecessary/over nerfs/buffs into the game. Just STAHP!

Anyone who has ever actually played with or against the JPIV knows it is fine. Anyone who reads stats but doesn't play says this kind of nonsense.


+1.

And that goes for a LOT of threads.

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