To Relic -- Ideas to fix DLC mess

i like to play competitive games were everyone is on a equal playing field.

The best part is, they can justify spending company assets balancing the game since its still making money. News flash kiddies, world does not work on free. Its find to bitch and complain about lack of content but when it's here and they ask you for a *gasp* $4 commander or even more shocking $12 faction it's relic corporate greed for you ladies and gents, you all just a bunch of hypocritical cunts. The last time I bought the British in a coh game it cost me $30 bucks with a cheesy story I didn't ask for, $12 bucks ($10 if pre order) that's a deal.

Ignoring the rather unpleasant tone of your response, I think you are missing the point.
Nobody realistically expects them to work on additional content for free any more. The issue is that they have no incentive to keep new commanders balanced with existing ones if they want to encourage people to buy them.
Personally I would rather have paid a bit more for a British faction that came with 6 well-balanced Commanders rather than three common ones and three "premium" ones that can be purchased for additional money.

It is the same with the new Commanders - if they were being offered as part of a bigger deal (which admittedly is very difficult because they are being offered as DLC for existing DLC), rather than a single new Commander, you could expect the risk of them being imbalanced to be reduced.

I had a good read here:

http://www.pcgamer.com/how-400-virtual-knives-saved-counter-strike/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=pcgfb

Hope someone at Relic would give it a look for future projects

Anime tanks show up, and I'm gone for good.

I'm not saying they don't make a difference; obviously they do, and obviously they would be pointless if they didn't.

What I'm asking, rather, is whether you really think a player who won a given game would have lost that same game if they had not used the "best" commander available? Do you really think that commanders make so much difference that they change a defeat into a victory and vice versa? I'm not convinced that is really the case.

Commanders gives you tools. It's up to the player to use them at their best. Note that there's a difference between choosing the best commander for the situation and playing with top tier commanders. If you are playing with subpar commanders, i'll say you'll lose on situations on which the game is only 60/70 in favour of someone if the other player plays it's card well. Heck, just look at the tournament and see the variety of commanders been used.

There are things that gives you slight advantages and other which are great game swingers. If i have to put it on 3 categories from lesser to big immediate impact:

Show Spoiler

Well, you can't make the distinction between "best commander for the situation" and "some commanders are OP"; if some really are OP, then they are by definition the best for any situation; and if another one is best for the situation, then these OP ones turn out to be situational after all.

And in that case it can't really be said that the commander caused the win. I just think this whole debate needs to be dialled back a notch. It seems to me that the problem is being exaggerated, and the worst possible interpretation unfairly put on Relic's actions.

I mean even saying that new commanders are going to be OP for a month before they get patched - a whole MONTH OMG!- just isn't really that big of a deal IMO. Because this contains the admission that Relic are going to be looking at it and adjusting it, and so really the complaint is that they can't get it perfect first time every time. This is not something I find shocking.

Releasing something broken or OP to later nerf or balance it doesn't look good at all.

Regarding if a Commander is OP or not, i'll rather go with Tiers. While outdated, this gives you a good panorama of what i'm referring to.

http://www.coh2.org/guides/33767/commander-tiers

ATM i'll say without distinction of game mode (some are obviously better on 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3+):

T1: Rifle - Vanguard - Shock Rifle - CAS

T2: Infantry - Armor - Airborne - Commandos - Mech Support - Guard Motor - KV8 commanders (not industry) - Armored Assault - TA - Tiger commanders (each are better against different opponents or modes) - Mobile defense - Osstruppen - Scavenge - Breakthrough - Luftwaffe

T3: most commanders who at least have some useful abilities (ex: Blitzkrieg) fall in this group

T4: Mechanized - Recon - Royal engineers - Elite armor - etc

T5: Community commanders - NKVD - German Infantry - German mechanized - etc

And in that case it can't really be said that the commander caused the win. I just think this whole debate needs to be dialled back a notch. It seems to me that the problem is being exaggerated, and the worst possible interpretation unfairly put on Relic's actions.

Welcome to the internet

I mean even saying that new commanders are going to be OP for a month before they get patched - a whole MONTH OMG!- just isn't really that big of a deal IMO. Because this contains the admission that Relic are going to be looking at it and adjusting it, and so really the complaint is that they can't get it perfect first time every time. This is not something I find shocking.

We have that whenever any new content comes out, people would rather complain that something is OP within 24 hours of release when everybody is playing it rather than look for counters or wait for things to settle down

Right now we appear to have streamlined the process somewhat by complaining that Ranger/Pershing are OP before we knew anything about costs or stats let alone played with/against them

Releasing something broken or OP to later nerf or balance it doesn't look good at all.

Regarding if a Commander is OP or not, i'll rather go with Tiers. While outdated, this gives you a good panorama of what i'm referring to.

http://www.coh2.org/guides/33767/commander-tiers

Yes it's on my list to be done, however as I outline above I like to wait for things to settle before looking at stuff and the impact of the Brits hasn't fully worked it's way through yet.

I wouldn't put Rifle as a Tier 1 however because it suffers in larger game modes

Just introduce big Add-ons, includes various DLC. It will be great. And I wanna see African maps in the game. And third Axis faction - Japanese Imperial Army! And Pacific maps as well

Some defenders of the current SEGA DLC market strategy are not seeing the 5+ years big picture that are at risk here. This DLC mess along with new SEGA games coming in 2016 (CA/Relic) could very well decide the future for RTS eSports and how popular the RTS/RTS hybrid genre will become on PC/Xbox/mobile platforms.
Currently, some big corporations such as Microsoft (CA making Halo Wars 2, Microsoft biggest game IP) are looking at SEGA RTS studios to lead the way for the next 5+ years on Windows 10 supported devices.
If SEGA are not very careful with this, they gonna screw it up. Then these big corporations will just say, screw it we're done with SEGA and instead put all money and marketing teams behind MOBAs/MMOs/FPS. SEGA eSport RIP.

HOPES FOR HALO WARS 2 AND THE RTS GENRE, Could this be the savior of the RTS genre on consoles and beyond?
http://throwingdigitalsheep.com/hopes-halo-wars-2-rts-genre/

"The bottom line is, Halo Wars 2 will potentially be playable on all Windows 10 supported devices, making the market for this title much bigger than the original game and in turn, widening the chances of commercial success for the game. This will be great for Microsoft, but it will be a momentus achievement for the RTS genre, no longer confined to the PC or to the console"

So far it has been confirmed, that CA has up to half its studio working on Halo Wars 2, so that would be up to 200 CA employees which are almost 3 times as many than COH2.

Halo Wars 2 - 10 Facts We Know So Far!:


First of all, with war spoils Relic has already, in theory, made all commanders free-to-play. Except for implementing these two systems, there are not a big difference between in-game currency and war spoils as they are both intended to reward in-game activity.
Personal, I would argue it would be more rewarding for Relic long term to start thinking about implementing cross-platform in-game currency such as Star Wars Battlefront that I talked about in my first post. A system that potentially can be used for all future Relic games and financially connect all gamers into one universe.
But if Relic doesn't fix war spoils or change to in-game currency, the easiest short term solution to fix this mess would do the same as Luvnest also suggested.

I had a good read here:

http://www.pcgamer.com/how-400-virtual-knives-saved-counter-strike/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=pcgfb

Hope someone at Relic would give it a look for future projects

Thanks for sharing Marcus.

Best idea I have seen so far to fix the broken war spoils system. The only thing that prevent war spoils used as a form of currency is the current lack of in-game trading/marketplace.

But we already have a lot of skins for ground armor so IMO if something like this was to work it would be for decorated commanders + call-ins infantry/airplanes that could also be used as personal avatars in game/out game.
Decorated “recon planes” could also be tied with these rare commanders, that fly over the map at the start/end of each match to help “market” these commanders. This ofc would require a new airplay observer mode.


Secondly, from my point of view during THQ bankruptcy, Relic came close to permanent death. This is relevant, as to why the COH2 game code was launched prematurely.
To save the studio they were forced to postpone DoW3 + COH: Online (used to gather ideas for DoW3) and then instead rush a bad game code for COH2 which resulted in poor optimization and bugs. Then add DLC trickery on top of this and COH2 was destined to get a rather poor launch.

The money grabbers aren´t the people at Relic, it´s SEGA. It's pretty obvious they give both Relic and Creative Assembly a hard time pressuring them to make money fast with DLC Trickery. Just look at the 6 months preorder trickery they are doing with Total War: Warhammer. SEGA make EA look like Saints. If they get away with this, DLC Trickery is only going to get worse with DoW3.

Total War: Warhammer - Has Sega gone too far? (Preorder DLC Group Discussion):


Hopefully with CA working with Microsoft on Halo Wars2 and SEGA eSport Total War: Arena (using the WoT FTP model), that will help to change SEGA's DLC policy.
Also for the love of gaming, SEGA should stop forcing employees to wear that silly Sonic blue hat. Personal, watching this video below I just want to kill the Sonic mascot and replace it with Warhammer mascot which has the potential to become SEGAs biggest IP. Stop being nostalgic, the Sonic franchise is dead now long live the Warhammer era of doom.



Will Relic/SEGA fix game code for COH2 to optimize the game?

OP tried tough

Yeah, pretty much this. It's just bad business and with the SEGA overlords running their market strategy to make more money.

The best hope for Relic IMO, try doing the same as the CA team that are working on Halo Wars 2 (windows 10 only for Xbox One/PC).

Create a new COH2 game code that can use on both Xbox One and PC running windows 10. With keyboard and mouse support coming to Xbox One, there should be fewer obstacles drawing console players into SEGA RTS games.

Now since Relic don’t have an AAA console team like CA, it might be a good idea to share the COH IP with them so they can help tweak a new game code for the Xbox One while Relic focuses on PC. Sharing the COH IP like Warhammer IP could benefit both SEGA studios.
The Halo Wars 2 team could learn a lot from COH2 and Relic could also draw more players from the Xbox to support COH2 eSport with a new game code. That's a win-win deal for both studios if you ask me.
With Windows 10 there is also the option to mobile stream from Xbox/PC to tablets and laptops running windows 10.

Windows 10 how to: stream a Xbox One game to your PC or tablet
http://www.winbeta.org/news/windows-10-how-stream-xbox-one-game-your-pc-or-tablet

CA is not building an RTS Xbox/PC windows 10 team just for Halo Wars but for future windows 10 SEGA IPs to come. Using windows 10 as the primary platform on both PC and Xbox One, Microsoft is making a market strategy to use that as the backdoor to get into mobile gaming to help rival Ipad/Android tablets.
A lot of gamers are playing games on laptops/tablets which they also use as their mobile "work PC". Increasingly fewer players prefer a high-end desktop PC but would rather be mobile with a laptop or tablet.
Microsoft knows this and CA is just one studio of many to come they will use to market Xbox one/tablets running windows 10.
With the option to mobile stream from the Xbox One to other platforms running windows 10, the Microsoft "tablets" suddenly become a seriously alternative to android/Ipad users that want a mobile work PC + casual gaming.

We have that whenever any new content comes out, people would rather complain that something is OP within 24 hours of release when everybody is playing it rather than look for counters or wait for things to settle down

There is big distinction between people complaining that new releases are OP because they aren't used to how to counter them and the suspicion that they are deliberately released in an OP state to encourage initial sales and then dialled back post-release into a more usable state.

Right now we appear to have streamlined the process somewhat by complaining that Ranger/Pershing are OP before we knew anything about costs or stats let alone played with/against them

I might be wrong, but my impression is that based upon what Relic have said about both the Rangers and the Pershing, both appear to be very capable units that individually aren't necessarily OP, but the concern is that including both with the same Commander will make that Commander potentially OP.

There is big distinction between people complaining that new releases are OP because they aren't used to how to counter them and the suspicion that they are deliberately released in an OP state to encourage initial sales and then dialled back post-release into a more usable state.

Possibly, but most people would rather cry the latter and blame somebody else rather than look at their own game.

And of course the new OKW Commander went from:

"Shamelessly overpowered P2W DLC how dare Relic charge money for this"

To:

"Shamlessly Underpowered P2Suck DLC how dare Relic charge money for this"


In the space of about 30 minutes once people saw it in action, so my scepticism about this seems somewhat justified

AngryJoe was not delighted to hear about this latests DLC trickery from SEGA.

AngryJoe Total War: Warhammer Pre-Order & DLC Angry Rant!:

Currently 508.036 views on youtube after only one week.

Well done SEGA, keep pissing off your RTS consumers and eSport from CA/Relic will be dead before it even got started. Go back and rethink your marketing goals because SEGA is not EA that can actually afford to piss off consumers.

FYI, AngryJoe was planning to become a big fan of this new SEGA game and gave positive previews of it in the past. Check out the past previews on his youtube channel.

AngryJoe & OtherJoe visit with the Lead Programmer of Total War: Warhammer:


AngryJoe Interviews Creative Assembly Battle Designer Simon Mann regarding the upcoming Total War: Warhammer!:


Then the SEGA DLC overlords just walk in 6 months in advance and mess up the positive previews and hype about the game. DAFUQ.


As said, if the DLC overlords get away with this again, its only going to get worse with DoW3 and more future RTS games from SEGA. Personally, I was planning to preorder but not like this.

Admiral Ackbar; 'It's a trap!'

snip

I don't really know what you(or anyone) expected.
This is current gaming industry reality.
Only players can change it, just like it was players who made devs abandon subscription model for the sake of F2P and often P2W mmos.

You don't like DLCs?
Play 8-bit like indie shits.

You have enough money?
Enjoy dlc content.

You expect them to stop making dlcs?
Get a grip on reality or convince every single player on earth to not buy them.

DLCs are so widely spread and SUCCESSFUL, because WE THE PLAYERS fill pockets of the ones who sell them.
The only company in the whole world who doesn't focus on that is blizzard, but don't worry, just like everything with blizzard, they are getting there about a decade after everyone else.

You can be angry, you can make petitions, you can press dislike button on youtube-it doesn't matter, because half of the community will have new commanders after preview ends, everyone who wants total war warhammer will preorder it for dlc that clearly is a part of the game specifically cut to be a dlc instead of actual preorder bonus and other producers will keep doing what they do, because players are naive enough to make it work.

Snip

Well, the whole gaming community managed to force Square-Enix to shut down "Augment your Game" (or what ever its name is). That's something. This kind of awareness from game critics like Angry Joe, Jim Sterling and Total Biscuit might change the game industry.

Also, Imma take the bait here:

-8-bit Indie games are not shit.
-Not wanting to pay for DLC mostly has nothing to do with money, but the trickery.

You expect them to stop making dlcs?
Get a grip on reality or convince every single player on earth to not buy them.

You're missing the point.
There is a big difference between making sensible DLC and exploiting/deceiving consumers because they got too greedy.
Personally, I'm not against DLC but only if SEGA become more sensible about it. I have invested more than 400$ into COH2 (DLC, second account, community support/donations) so it's not about the money. I invested more than 5000$ into EvE online, supported hundreds of players in my team/alliance and never complained about it until the devs (CCP) went nuts with DLC trickery. Then enough players got angry/protested and then eventual CCP became more sensible about it.
Sadly, it's players with the same consumer attitude like you that SEGA loves to exploit.

Lionheart openly agreed that SEGAs DLC/marketing strategy is counter-productive:

TLDR: Cut Content Sucks... 6 Months before release... just not cool at all. When its genuine extra content developed just before release in the period where a studio has already finished game production and is getting the ratings and boxing all done that for me is fine. Its additional, adding to the existing 'complete' experience. But 6 months... Chaos was clearly ear-marked early on to be set aside as DLC (hence no information in interviews and events), which I guess they have every right to do but come on, when its seemingly such a key component of a game's lore it just feels crappy.
I understand the whole pre-order culture the industry has now and I dont necessarily have an issue with pre-order bonus' so long as its extra content... For me personally, I just hope they have good performance at launch, otherwise it doesnt matter what content is in or not, if it doesnt run well, whats the point! Please CA, this needs a good launch!!!

Lionheartx10 is a top Total War: Arena ESL player/caster and personal friend with CA_Dogbert.
Dogbert is CA Community Coordinator for Total War: Arena and former eSport player/manager for Team Dignitas for many years.
https://twitter.com/ca_dogbert

Team Dignitas with changes; farewell MrDogbert
http://team-dignitas.net/articles/news/Team-Dignitas/5414/Team-Dignitas-with-changes-farewell-MrDogbert-and-welcome-Brunion

3 years ago CA_Dogbert/Team Dignitas said this about COH2 eSport;

“Company of Heroes, amazing if it comes back and it got any eSports potential. I’ll literally live on that game.”

Go to youtube at 30:10 to hear CA_Dogbert positive comments on COH2s

So the eSport players/potential partners/casters etc. to support COH2 eSport are out there.

This Warhammer fan (Augur) also explains the latest DLC trick from SEGA fairly well;

This is the actuality of the situation "buy our game now before any reviews come out so you can have the "FULL" game. OR Wait for a game review to see if it's actually worth it, and get a PARTIAL game." The point being, they are putting the consumer in a shitty position. You need to realize this. I should not get less for full price, simply because I bought it a little later than you. The commercial idea here is "our game has sold millions of copies even before release".. the "teenage" customer sees this and automatically assumes it must be a good title, not realizing that the consumers were actually CORNERED into buying it before release. Then when they DO buy it, even if it DOESN'T suck, they have to pay more to get on the same playing ground as everyone else. It's an obvious penny-pinching scam to rush cash in the door and punish anyone who didn't buy it right away.

I have faith in both Creative Assembly & Relic. They are good innovative studios (given they are relatively small size) that deserve more praise from fans. But they need a good publisher with more visions, not a bunch of Gordon Gekko's.
Consumer trust is earned by being consistent in words and actions. Honesty attracts smart passionate players that are willing to invest time/money into the community (by free will), not just some teenagers that want instant gratification.

As I have been trying to point out, we as fans should be more inclined to attribute their marketing failures and missed eSport opportunities up to SEGA executives lack of visions and demanding things with little concept of how things actually work for the RTS genre/fans (latest preorder scandal is clear example of this).
SEGA need to stop using both RTS studios and fans as short-term cash cows and instead start helping the RTS genre/fan community to grow which would lead to higher long-term profits from polished quality games.

The many youtube comments and dislikes (currently 34K) from Warhammer fans to the preorder announcement trailer should speak for itself. I doubt CA have much influence in the matter.


Now if some COH2 members want to continue defending this marketing strategy from SEGA, that's your right ofc but stop trying to shoot the messengers. We as RTS fans all want the same thing, great entertaining games from CA/Relic, so focus on that rather than polishing your ego. But IMO, if this unpolished gem is to go eSport then a lot of things need to change starting with a publisher that are actually willing to support it for the long haul.

Hey, if people manage to force EA into damage control with BF and giving content for free, why can't be the same for Sega? (Although i know BF is the goose of the golden eggs, that might be the difference)