[Balance Preview] Pack Howitzer vs Infantry Gun

Initially this was posted in the October Balance Preview Feedback thread, but I'll put it here too for visibility and discussion:


The drop in performance of the Pack Howitzer compared to the Infantry Support Gun is huge and nonsensical considering the prices and targets between the two. In a field test with the auto-fire, the ISG suppressed an enemy squad at max range on every shot except one, until the squad's eventual death. The Pack Howitzer missed about eight shots before hitting which killing 3 Volksgrenadiers and suppressing the squad, then proceeded to miss about a dozen more before wiping the other two members. That is extremely inconsistent and impractical, and it must be amended before the patch goes live!

As for Range, the Infantry Support Gun is far superior to the Pack Howitzer. The Pack Howitzer has 80 range while the ISG has 100, the ISG gets 5 range at Vet 1 and 33% more at Vet 3 for a total of 140 Range. The Pack Howitzer would get 33% more at Vet 3 for 104 if it wasn't broken. But unfortunately it is and the Pack Howitzer remains capped at 80 range while the ISG gains nearly double that number. Even the Soviet Heavy Mortar has superior range (100) to the Pack Howitzer. This is also very ironic because the Pack Howitzer outranged the LeiG 18 by over twice as much in real life, in-game it's strange that a short barreled Infantry Gun has much better range than a Pack Howitzer.


Onto the Barrage and Cooldown stats, the Pack Howitzer again finds itself behind, not only firing less shots but also doing so less frequently:

Pack Howitzer
Vet 0: 3 shots, 60 second cooldown, 80 damage
Vet 3: 3 shots, 39 second cooldown, 160 damage

Infantry Gun
Vet 0: 4 shots, 30 second cooldown, 80 damage
Vet 3: 4 shots, 14 second cooldown, 80 damage
Vet 5: 8 shots, 14 second cooldown, 120 damage

The Pack Howitzer starts with double the cooldown of the Infantry Gun right off the bat, but while the Infantry Gun gets a 40% quicker recharge at Vet 3, the Pack Howitzer only gets a 30% reduction at Vet 3. Since cooldowns start once the first shot is fired, the Infantry Gun is fully able to barrage again immediately once the barrage completes, the Pack Howitzer has to wait about 20 seconds to barrage again (cooldown numbers on the list don't match the math, they were what I observed in-game by firing one round of a barrage, immediately cancelling it, and checking the timer ). At Vet 4, the Infantry Gun gets to fire 8 shots while the Pack Howitzer never fires more than just 3, but that's Vet 4+ and is supposed to be superior, so I'll concede that point. Reguardless I think both barrages should be 5 - 6 rounds, 3 is too little.

Lastly, the projectile lowest angel increased from 10 to 40 does not apply to White Phosphorous Barrage.

People keep saying that OKW needs the LiG to make up for their lack of a HMG but most OKW players play a commander that provides them one. People also seem to forget the Kubelwagon.

The gun kills better than the best Soviet mortars of the same value and also instantly suppresses units making infiltration tactics impossible on smaller maps and massing infantry to counter OKW blobs near impossible on all maps.

i always knew the pew pew gun had a lot of range but i didn't know it was THAT much range jesus H relic fix this shit or something!

I'd also like to add that the Pack has a ridiculous pop cost of 11.

For reference the sherman has 12 pop cost, hell even the ostwind has a smaller pop cost of 10.

There is no reason for it to have the same pop as medium tanks. Just with building two of these you'll start hitting full pop at only 2 tanks.

Lets not have posts like #5 and #6 please.

I'd also like to add that the Pack has a ridiculous pop cost of 11.

For reference the sherman has 12 pop cost, hell even the ostwind has a smaller pop cost of 10.

There is no reason for it to have the same pop as medium tanks. Just with building two of these you'll start hitting full pop at only 2 tanks.

Good catch, I forgot to check Population number. That's another inconsistency.

It's weird, the cost and population seem to imply that the Pack Howitzer is a much better weapon, except it isn't at all.

i always knew the pew pew gun had a lot of range but i didn't know it was THAT much range jesus H relic fix this shit or something!

It's like your surprised by anything that Axis might have over Allies.

Anyways onto the real topic:

Pack Howie didn't need all those changes. They should revert it to its pre-brit release(lose the instant pin and laser-guided rounds), increase the number of shells on its barrages to help increase the power of USF non-doctrinal artillery, and possibly make its veterancy better, preferably just more buffs to the barrage or make it move faster.

Lets not have posts like #5 and #6 please.

Like that'll happen.

Pack is the result of someone thinking about something good, making regrets along the way and then making the product look like something held together by tape. ISG is the same guy not making a 2nd mistake

There's no real well thought reason behind why pack has all these absurd features compared to the ISG.

Artillery range barrage on vet 3, bad AA range, 6 man with 3 men requiring to move, expensive, the popcap, the barrage cd and the vet bonuses as a whole too really. USF was desgined as a mobile faction and they get this instead of the shitton of mortars they made.

I think it's nice of you to highlight this problem, but besides that there's not really much to do besides praying to that relic will read this and consider doing something about it.

The nerf to Pack Howie's aoe radius is kind of perplexing to me as well... the Pack being more expensive and slower firing always seemed somewhat okay due to the Pack's better aoe but now that they have the same radius in the Mod the ISG seems like you get a much better bang for your buck.

I feel like Relic needs to revert the AOE nerf or decrease the MP cost.

Initially this was posted in the October Balance Preview Feedback thread, but I'll put it here too for visibility and discussion:


The drop in performance of the Pack Howitzer compared to the Infantry Support Gun is huge and nonsensical considering the prices and targets between the two. In a field test with the auto-fire, the ISG suppressed an enemy squad at max range on every shot except one, until the squad's eventual death. The Pack Howitzer missed about eight shots before hitting which killing 3 Volksgrenadiers and suppressing the squad, then proceeded to miss about a dozen more before wiping the other two members. That is extremely inconsistent and impractical, and it must be amended before the patch goes live!

As for Range, the Infantry Support Gun is far superior to the Pack Howitzer. The Pack Howitzer has 80 range while the ISG has 100, the ISG gets 5 range at Vet 1 and 33% more at Vet 3 for a total of 140 Range. The Pack Howitzer would get 33% more at Vet 3 for 104 if it wasn't broken. But unfortunately it is and the Pack Howitzer remains capped at 80 range while the ISG gains nearly double that number. Even the Soviet Heavy Mortar has superior range (100) to the Pack Howitzer. This is also very ironic because the Pack Howitzer outranged the LeiG 18 by over twice as much in real life, in-game it's strange that a short barreled Infantry Gun has much better range than a Pack Howitzer.


Onto the Barrage and Cooldown stats, the Pack Howitzer again finds itself behind, not only firing less shots but also doing so less frequently:

Pack Howitzer
Vet 0: 3 shots, 60 second cooldown, 80 damage
Vet 3: 3 shots, 39 second cooldown, 160 damage

Infantry Gun
Vet 0: 4 shots, 30 second cooldown, 80 damage
Vet 3: 4 shots, 14 second cooldown, 80 damage
Vet 5: 8 shots, 14 second cooldown, 120 damage

The Pack Howitzer starts with double the cooldown of the Infantry Gun right off the bat, but while the Infantry Gun gets a 40% quicker recharge at Vet 3, the Pack Howitzer only gets a 30% reduction at Vet 3. Since cooldowns start once the first shot is fired, the Infantry Gun is fully able to barrage again immediately once the barrage completes, the Pack Howitzer has to wait about 20 seconds to barrage again (cooldown numbers on the list don't match the math, they were what I observed in-game by firing one round of a barrage, immediately cancelling it, and checking the timer ). At Vet 4, the Infantry Gun gets to fire 8 shots while the Pack Howitzer never fires more than just 3, but that's Vet 4+ and is supposed to be superior, so I'll concede that point. Reguardless I think both barrages should be 5 - 6 rounds, 3 is too little.

Lastly, the projectile lowest angel increased from 10 to 40 does not apply to White Phosphorous Barrage.

Good luck getting any traction with this. I said something similar in the larger October balance thread and it was mostly ignored with one person saying that the pack howie is okay after the nerf.

I mostly play OKW and USF. In 1v1's, I'll sometimes get 45-50 kills with an ISG (which leads to comments about my lack of skill and sexual preferences). I get barely over half that with a pack howie that costs more and has two more pop cap. The only time I like the pack howie better is when destroying buildings, bunkers, and trucks. If one of these should have been hit harder, it should have been the ISG. In general, they both should have been nerfed because they've made the game not fun. It really isn't fun to play an hour-long 1v1 that turns into an arty fest.

People keep saying that OKW needs the LiG to make up for their lack of a HMG but most OKW players play a commander that provides them one. People also seem to forget the Kubelwagon.

The gun kills better than the best Soviet mortars of the same value and also instantly suppresses units making infiltration tactics impossible on smaller maps and massing infantry to counter OKW blobs near impossible on all maps.

I do think the LeIG is broken but comparing the kubelwagen to a viable suppression platform is silly. Its good for the first 6 minutes (admittedly very good) but then drops off so fast. I can't imagine a single situation where someone would build a late game kubel, but I can imagine it for just about every other unit.

Also I don't think that playing 2 commanders that give them one is a valid point. I mean, why lock people into two commanders for any faction?

Color me not surprised...

Just another thing to tell me how shitty USF really is.

Why cant they just give USF a mortar and then give the pack howi barrage only?

Just another thing to tell me how shitty USF really is.

Why cant they just give USF a mortar and then give the pack howi barrage only?

This is still my favorite solution.


It would just solve so much of USF's design problems.

The MG34 is terrible at the moment, and the doctrines that have it are pretty terrible as well. Falls die too fast atm, and fortifications just loses to indirect fire. Kubel can be really risky as well against carriers and clown cars.

Plz nerf the LeiG but OKW really needs sumtin...

I think the Pack Howitzer should be balanced more akin to the 120mm Mortar, with a bit more range on barrage and a bit less. At least for now, in the long run I'd like to see both acting more like the SU-76, able to fire low-angle shots directly at enemys within shooting range of the gun, with the ability to barrage at longer ranges like an artillery piece (as often as a 120mm). But for now, the Pack Howitzer needs to be brought up-to-par with similar weapons.

From what I've heard from the stat diggers, the Pack howi is better than the LeIg cause it has a much larger AoE, but OKW is less manpower starved than USF so OKW can build more LeIgs and get them sooner.