grenadier/panzergrenadier lack of survivability

Perhaps. But you'll have to make an actual case for this argument, rather than simply asserting it.

Okay, here is a more detailed argument.

defensive abilities that increase survivability are extremely important. Thank you for reinforcing the point I was making.

The point you were making is that you would rather a PaK have +20% hit points per crew member instead of, say, stun shot, accuracy, fire rate and penetration bonuses. If that is the point you wanted to reinforce, you will find yourself in the minority.

Semantics.

Not quite. Consider that US Forces units get universal upgrades (BAR, Sherman 76mm cannon), PLUS units that stay in the field longer and rack up kills get veterancy.
Wehrmacht units got universal upgrades only. There was no additional way to get bonuses related to unit preservation. You could ONLY spend fuel and manpower to improve your troops.

Unit preservation and veteran troops are a great mechanic and one of the cornerstones of CoH franchise in general. I am very glad they stopped experimenting with wacky different ways to obtain veterancy bonuses in coh2.

We did steer away from the topic at the moment. If you are saying that Ostheer needs some way to get universal defensive bonuses as the game progresses because of the innate weaknesses of 4-man squads, I hope you will see that we actually agree on that point.

The point you were making is that you would rather a PaK have +20% hit points per crew member instead of, say, stun shot, accuracy, fire rate and penetration bonuses. If that is the point you wanted to reinforce, you will find yourself in the minority.

Nope, wrong. I'm not saying I would RATHER anything; I'm making an OBSERVATION that in CoH1, Wehr's 4-man squads were both more durable, and the consequences of losing them less severe, than in CoH2. That's all.

Unit preservation and veteran troops are a great mechanic and one of the cornerstones of CoH franchise in general. I am very glad they stopped experimenting with wacky different ways to obtain veterancy bonuses in coh2.

I'm not disagreeing with the virtue of unit preservation. I'm just saying it's pointless claiming that one imaginary abstraction is hugely more real than another imaginary abstraction.

We did steer away from the topic at the moment. If you are saying that Ostheer needs some way to get universal defensive bonuses as the game progresses because of the innate weaknesses of 4-man squads, I hope you will see that we actually agree on that point.

I'm not really making suggestions. I'm trying to participate in the discussion, not push some pet solution.

Can i Throw in again the medbunker? Let then stay squishy but let us have a mechanic to Profit from it. (Bunkers gets destroyed by 15munitions so it's wont be op I guess)

Also, CoH2 Grens are more the equivalent of CoH1 Volksgrenadiers than Grenadiers.

Panzergrenadiers are a sort of mashup between Grenadiers and KCH, defying nature and inheriting the weaknesses of both.

I don't like medic bunkers. Free squads are not good for the game, and in coh1 it was worse because medics didn't really discriminate and would pull in wounded of all factions. You could turn riflemen into zombie Grenadiers .

@squippy, sorry for putting words in your mouth. What I meant was, defensive bonuses are better than nothing, but they were completely nonsensical on stuff like mortars and AT guns, essentially the coh1 implementation of global veterancy was flawed from the beginning and even if offensive bonuses were given. It ensured the bonuses would have to be poorer than the "earned" veterancy because of potential for late game spam of elite troops. Some might consider lategame fielding of elites only a cool defining faction perk, just like OKW forward bases and fuel penalty, but I simply think it is not possible to balance it alongside other factions that gain veterancy the "normal" way.

Riflemen could not become zombie grens, but allied casualties could, hence pgrens could become grenadiers, and tommies could become riflemen, but it wouldn't cross factions.

Perhaps at one build or another, but the final and later versions of vCoH that would not occur.

I've almost always crusaded for the Allies, but even I have to admit, Grens tend to get rickrolled by rifles and cons as the game progresses.

So basically grenadiers and panzergrenadiers need to remain defenceless against usf and UK infantry lategame is what you are saying?

You just don't fight ukf and usf infantry with grens alone, it's meant to be like that. Wehrmacht has really good team weapons that make probably the best combined arms of all the factions. That's asymmetric balance, the very same reason for USF not having a KT (well, yet).

You just don't fight ukf and usf infantry with grens alone, it's meant to be like that. Wehrmacht has really good team weapons that make probably the best combined arms of all the factions. That's asymmetric balance, the very same reason for USF not having a KT (well, yet).

Lategame neither grens nor pzgrens nor support weapons are able to hold back ukf and usf infantry,assyemetric balance is just an excuse for allied players now.There is no assymetry in armor for allies anymore with pershing and ukf armor,their armor being cheaper as it is.

Grens and pzgrens are defenceless lategame vs usf and ukf infantry,experiencing this repeatedly firsthand.

Lategame neither grens nor pzgrens nor support weapons are able to hold back ukf and usf infantry,assyemetric balance is just an excuse for allied players now.There is no assymetry in armor for allies anymore with pershing and ukf armor,their armor being cheaper as it is.

Grens and pzgrens are defenceless lategame vs usf and ukf infantry,experiencing this repeatedly firsthand.

Grens with mortar and MG support can definitely hold their own against infantry sections, and with some clever play you can defeat a Rifleman force too (example: 3 rifles smoke an mg, close in, get into close comabt with Pgrens with a predictable result).

Also note that Pgrens are not meant for frontline engagements. They are flanking troops that do really well at medium range. Think of them as more durable Fallschirmjagers (which are hardly defenseless against Allied infantry) that are worse at long range but the same at mid and close, and use them as such.

Grens with mortar and MG support can definitely hold their own against infantry sections, and with some clever play you can defeat a Rifleman force too (example: 3 rifles smoke an mg, close in, get into close comabt with Pgrens with a predictable result).

Also note that Pgrens are not meant for frontline engagements. They are flanking troops that do really well at medium range. Think of them as more durable Fallschirmjagers (which are hardly defenseless against Allied infantry) that are worse at long range but the same at mid and close, and use them as such.

In the late game you can't.You can hold back once or twice,but eventually they will break through.Mgs are less and less effective as vetted infantry dodge bullets.The scenario ur talking about works in early and mid game max.In lategame after smoke rifles getting close will still overwhelm pzgrenadiers due to ridiculous vet and 5 men.
What you are essentially saying that axis infantry requires perfect micro and luck against just plain frontal blob attack of allied infantry EVERYTIME every engagement lategame just to defend themselves and prevent themselves from being wiped out,forget any basis of competitiveness which only proves my point.

Really? Now you are gonna tell me Rapid conscription doesn't give Penals /s

No, it will give you your BASIC infantry, CONSCRIPTS. That is what it will give you. While in ostheer's case, it won't give you your BASIC infantry, THE GRENADIERS. It will give you some infantry tentative called "osttruppen". Should I drow it to you, in order for you to understand what I mean?What are you going to tel me now, that it would be unfair because grenadiers > conscripts?

That amount of bias.

So Cons Arent worse than grens like some1 stated?

in general, they are worse then grens. they're supposed to be on par with grens, just good at different ranges. the actual outcome of that, and the way their upgrades work, is that they're worse though.

No, it will give you your BASIC infantry, CONSCRIPTS. That is what it will give you. While in ostheer's case, it won't give you your BASIC infantry, THE GRENADIERS. It will give you some infantry tentative called "osttruppen". Should I drow it to you, in order for you to understand what I mean?What are you going to tel me now, that it would be unfair because grenadiers > conscripts?

That amount of bias.

You need to revise your sarcasm detector. It's not even fun making fun of someone like you who still has to prove that plays the game.

340mp vs 500mp elite infantry squad

Reminder that Commandos are getting a healthy nerf next patch

http://puu.sh/kOJVh/84b7802d4d.webm

@squippy, sorry for putting words in your mouth. What I meant was, defensive bonuses are better than nothing, but they were completely nonsensical on stuff like mortars and AT guns, essentially the coh1 implementation of global veterancy was flawed from the beginning and even if offensive bonuses were given. It ensured the bonuses would have to be poorer than the "earned" veterancy because of potential for late game spam of elite troops. Some might consider lategame fielding of elites only a cool defining faction perk, just like OKW forward bases and fuel penalty, but I simply think it is not possible to balance it alongside other factions that gain veterancy the "normal" way.

Fair enough. And in the interests of raising the tone of debate, let me say that I did read your more detailed argument, and while I think I ultimately still disagree with you, it's always much better to end up disagreeing over detailed well argued positions.

Although I will say, everyone has a moment where you're praying for that last PAK shot that will kill that tank marauding in your base, and which if you don't get will mean the tank kills your gunners and then everything else you have. Defensive resilience has its virtues.

--

Also, IIRC, one of Coh1's Wehr vet levels gave passive healing, so again they were a lot more survivable. And as ZombiFrancis mentions, you could always use the 5-man Volks squad to absorb fire before it arrived on your 4-man grens.

On top of this, the basic infantry units had different health values:
Rifleman: 55 health
Engineer: 55
Volksgren: 60
Pioneer: 70
Grenadier: 80
Tommies: 60
PE grens: 55

So a gren squad had a total heal of 320 and a rifleman squad had a total health of 330. But the difference in per model health meant that individual grens were more likely to survive a grenade that would kill most of the models in a rifleman squad. In both cases, the squad itself could well avoid being wiped.

EDIT:
According to the chart in the OP, CoH2 Grens, Conscripts, and Rifles all have 80. So in the respect the relationship that existed in CoH1 where Wehr models were tougher is gone, but the proportional squad sizes remain.

340mp vs 500mp elite infantry squad

Reminder that Commandos are getting a healthy nerf next patch

http://puu.sh/kOJVh/84b7802d4d.webm

Can't wait to see how johhnyb will try to weasel out of this with crafty excuses

IB4 they are vet2 behind yellow cover

Show Spoiler

You need to revise your sarcasm detector. It's not even fun making fun of someone like you who still has to prove that plays the game.

That's the reply of a man that has no point.

the panzergrenadier is a painfully defensive unit. You basically need the enemy to charge into them to make them useful.

They lack the stealth of the commandos and the durability of shocktrooper. Theoretically the panzergrenadier have better long-mid range dps but it's not really that high. Once the UKF and USF upgrade their troops thw panzergrenadier gets fallen behind.