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russian armor

grenadier/panzergrenadier lack of survivability

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14 Oct 2015, 13:32 PM
#81
avatar of drChengele
Patrion 14

Posts: 640 | Subs: 1

A lot of people seem to be on board for a 5 man Grenadier squad. I think this would completely change the identity of the squad. At the moment Grens are squishy and are supposed to be squishy. It's their shtick. That is why they are the cheapest mainline inf (in addition to cons), have long-range DPS profile, long-range abilities, and a long-range upgrade.

After years of back and forth, it can be said that the early game infantry matchups of all factions (except Brits who are still oscillating between UP and OP units, overbuffs and overnerfs) are more or less in the right spot. If you overturn years of finetuning you better have a damn good way to do it.

That battle phase 3 suggestion is the best of them all. Doesn't affect early game, helps with those late game wipes to a lucky tank shots.
14 Oct 2015, 18:21 PM
#82
avatar of hannibalbarcajr

Posts: 503

A lot of people seem to be on board for a 5 man Grenadier squad. I think this would completely change the identity of the squad. At the moment Grens are squishy and are supposed to be squishy. It's their shtick. That is why they are the cheapest mainline inf (in addition to cons), have long-range DPS profile, long-range abilities, and a long-range upgrade.

After years of back and forth, it can be said that the early game infantry matchups of all factions (except Brits who are still oscillating between UP and OP units, overbuffs and overnerfs) are more or less in the right spot. If you overturn years of finetuning you better have a damn good way to do it.

That battle phase 3 suggestion is the best of them all. Doesn't affect early game, helps with those late game wipes to a lucky tank shots.

So true...we are at the best spot since launch of WFA. A 5 man squad any sooner than T4 could be disastrous and huge upset of what balance we have.
14 Oct 2015, 18:40 PM
#83
avatar of Sikko
Patrion 14

Posts: 113

...

That battle phase 3 suggestion is the best of them all. Doesn't affect early game, helps with those late game wipes to a lucky tank shots.


I also like this idea best.
14 Oct 2015, 19:43 PM
#84
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1


You liked it, didn't you?

More than I will admit
15 Oct 2015, 03:54 AM
#85
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post14 Oct 2015, 18:40 PMSikko


I also like this idea best.

5 man grens and pgrens with t4 upgrade is a good idea. Only affects late game.
15 Oct 2015, 14:24 PM
#86
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

+1, add in 5th man at BP3. Should keep early game balance as is and compensate for grens poorer late game veterancy and survivability (compared to other core infantry).
15 Oct 2015, 14:31 PM
#87
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2015, 14:24 PMJunaid
+1, add in 5th man at BP3. Should keep early game balance as is and compensate for grens poorer late game veterancy and survivability (compared to other core infantry).


It is already compensate by better later game tanks.
15 Oct 2015, 14:37 PM
#88
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2015, 14:31 PMEsxile


It is already compensate by better later game tanks.

So True especially factions didnt get homoginizated at all.
15 Oct 2015, 14:42 PM
#89
avatar of Pedro_Jedi

Posts: 543


So True especially factions didnt get homoginizated at all.


That's legit concern.

But I think that a 5th man would be nice. Maybe it could be a german shepherd for 50 MP and 50 muni, "snipes" 1 unit of enemy infatry and supresses the rest. One use only, must rebuy after 30 second cooldown.
15 Oct 2015, 16:14 PM
#90
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2015, 14:31 PMEsxile


It is already compensate by better later game tanks.


That was true before the advent of UKF.
15 Oct 2015, 16:19 PM
#91
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

To be fair, I'm not 100% sure its needed per se, but the trouble is thus: I have thought about it and I've come up with 4 separate facets to this problem:

against cons, grens are balanced late-game (as in vet3 squad vs vet3) and obey the early game dynamic

against late game rifles, late game grens are not effective for cost.

against late game IS, grens are laughably bad, especially in light of the upcoming IS reinforce changes

against AoE weapons, grens 4 man composition hurts them, badly

adding in the 5th man sort of solves the last 3, but wrecks the first
15 Oct 2015, 16:31 PM
#92
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2015, 16:19 PMJunaid
To be fair, I'm not 100% sure its needed per se, but the trouble is thus: I have thought about it and I've come up with 4 separate facets to this problem:

against cons, grens are balanced late-game (as in vet3 squad vs vet3) and obey the early game dynamic

against late game rifles, late game grens are not effective for cost.

against late game IS, grens are laughably bad, especially in light of the upcoming IS reinforce changes

against AoE weapons, grens 4 man composition hurts them, badly

adding in the 5th man sort of solves the last 3, but wrecks the first

Why do you think the 5 men upgrade comes at t4? SO it doesn't change anything but the late game. Fixing gren scaling, and fragility. All it does is add another dude with a kar98 so dps hardly goes up. Just more squad health. Grens still have the the most inferior vet and received accuracy of all the baseline infantry, but do fine early-mid game. Thats why I suggested gren squads and pgren squads get their cost up to 260-280 and 360-380 respectively if new squads need to be bought after the upgrade.
15 Oct 2015, 16:40 PM
#93
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 558 | Subs: 1

yeah, some buff would be nice
at least for the horrible bundlegrenade.. it costs 45mun and it doesnt do crap most of the time..
15 Oct 2015, 16:57 PM
#94
avatar of AngryKitten465

Posts: 473

Permanently Banned


well Oorah don't complete negate the german defense, smoke does, i am ok with shock have smoke as it is expansive and non spammable unit, however rifleman can be spammed also their smoke have super long range and huge area effect, so they can spam their smoke nade, one game I was dig in with OKW, the area cover with 3 bunkers 2 HMG, flak HQ, and a pak 43 and a panther, USF rifle blob just rush in and used 3 smoke completely cover their path and run in nade the pak43 to decrew it then attack ground with bazooka and killed flak HQ before smoke is gone, then they rush their 2 jackson to force off my panther. i don't know what i can do to stop rifle blob rush heavy defence position and smoke everything and kill every defense structure to with bazooka attack ground, bunker, HMG, Flak are all anti blob and it was complete useless against rifle blob.


Well did you have any infantry there? From what you wrote, it doesn't seem like it haha.
15 Oct 2015, 18:59 PM
#95
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622



Well did you have any infantry there? From what you wrote, it doesn't seem like it haha.


i don't because they were attacking other place, but i don't see what is use of infantry there when they can't see, maybe throw a nade? that is about it. i don't see the point of 1-2 infantry sq there when there is 6 anti blob unit that is become ultra useless because of smoke.
15 Oct 2015, 19:10 PM
#96
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Oct 2015, 16:14 PMJunaid


That was true before the advent of UKF.


You have better early and better mid game vs UKF, dunno what do you want more?
15 Oct 2015, 20:29 PM
#97
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

First of all, the british "pay" for that 5th men by having a vastly overpriced squad in the beginning.

In no way are the tommies worth 35 mp per man, maybe 30 mp per men. Even the balanced preview only lower their reinforcement cost, not the squad purchase price.

This means that the british are paying for a 5 men squad in the beginning for a 4 men squad.

the wehr doesn't have this mechanic in place. If you want the wehr to get a 5th man, then you would need to redesign the squad for a 5 man or make the grenadier cost 300-280 mp.

15 Oct 2015, 20:34 PM
#98
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

What about letting grens as fragile as they are and add a Med bunker:bananadance:
15 Oct 2015, 20:45 PM
#99
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Zombies? We already have relief infantry :bananadance:
15 Oct 2015, 21:47 PM
#100
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
First of all, the british "pay" for that 5th men by having a vastly overpriced squad in the beginning.

In no way are the tommies worth 35 mp per man, maybe 30 mp per men. Even the balanced preview only lower their reinforcement cost, not the squad purchase price.

This means that the british are paying for a 5 men squad in the beginning for a 4 men squad.

the wehr doesn't have this mechanic in place. If you want the wehr to get a 5th man, then you would need to redesign the squad for a 5 man or make the grenadier cost 300-280 mp.

is WILL be 28 mp per model, which is less than grens. Did you read the patchnotes?
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