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USF Improvised vehicle armor

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The Big Red 1
2 Oct 2015, 04:53 AM
#1
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Posts: 758


its no secret that the armor of the USF is very fragile when fighting against better armed and armored axis tanks. i think it would be nice if relic could implement the option for USF to have the ability to modify their armor (sandbags, logs, applique armor, etc.) in order to increase survivability odds since axis tank and anti-tank guns have at least an 80-95% guaranteed chance to hit and penetrate armor without having to worry of RNG
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BeefSurge
2 Oct 2015, 05:19 AM
#2
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Posts: 1891

U.S. Tanks are debatably the most durable in the sense that they all have nondoc smoke and good stabs, allowing for tactics that minimize damage taken.

Repair critical allows higher survival chance if fausted/mined; and the presence of REs and vehicle crews means USF tanks can get back into the fight faster than other all other factions except maybe OKW. (But USF has numbers.)

Decrewing USF tanks saves popcap and increased income, too.

So, figure that for all the bonuses above + the power of properly used and equipped Riflemen throughout the match, USF tanks don't require extensive durability because they have other strengths that represent the United States logistical and tactical superiority during the later stages of WWII, and also to encourage a unique micro-oriented playstyle.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
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daftwhat
2 Oct 2015, 05:21 AM
#3
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Posts: 35

Would be a cool idea.
It could mitigate the "paper tank" problem.

After a hit or couple hits the improvised armor could break off and have to pay whatever for it to be reapplied.
It'd be neat seeing Shermans and what not with logs, etc tied on.
and
REALISM :snfPeter:
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Mr. Someguy
2 Oct 2015, 05:33 AM
#4
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Posts: 4928

Relic should have just increased the armour to 180 as-per the first Balance Preview, instead of increasing the penetration.
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Gluhoman
2 Oct 2015, 06:05 AM
#5
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Posts: 380

I think 120 fuel major is too expensive for USF tank. Sherman got buff armor and it's good. To my mind Jackson front armor must be increased, because of increased tigers sight. Sandbags for USF armor will be good idea.
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EtherealDragon
2 Oct 2015, 06:08 AM
#6
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Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

Maybe if there was some tradeoff (reduced speed, acceleration, etc.)
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AngryKitten465
2 Oct 2015, 06:09 AM
#7
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Posts: 473

Permanently Banned
How about some extra armor at veterancy levels? :)
Whenever I face USF as OKW, it feels like I have been strapped down into a mental hospital wheelchair, with legs that can't reach the floor to move myself forward and a nurse is trying to move the wheelchair backwards whilst I have to race a formula one car for a best of three laps.

It feels handicapped from the start


No thumbs, cute and a lot of furry fluffiness, I am the ultimate kitten and by the heavens, am I angry!
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Firesparks
2 Oct 2015, 06:10 AM
#8
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2015, 05:19 AMBeefSurge
U.S. Tanks are debatably the most durable in the sense that they all have nondoc smoke and good stabs, allowing for tactics that minimize damage taken.


hardly. the smoke have a significantly delay time and require your tank to stop moving. It's meant for covering an attack, not escape.

the cromwell's raw speed also make it a better evasive tank than the sherman.

The panzer 4 have armor, the cromwell have speed and size. the sherman have neither of these.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2015, 05:33 AMMr. Someguy
Relic should have just increased the armour to 180 as-per the first Balance Preview, instead of increasing the penetration.


a buff in hp would be better. There's a lot of axis weapon capable of ignoring even 180 armor.

Right now the USF armors are two glass cannon trying to cover each other.

the cromwells are easily more survivable. The cromwell can easily detect and escape dangers that would have killed a sherman.


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US3K
2 Oct 2015, 08:13 AM
#9
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Posts: 104

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2015, 05:19 AMBeefSurge
U.S. Tanks are debatably the most durable in the sense that they all have nondoc smoke and good stabs, allowing for tactics that minimize damage taken.

Repair critical allows higher survival chance if fausted/mined; and the presence of REs and vehicle crews means USF tanks can get back into the fight faster than other all other factions except maybe OKW. (But USF has numbers.)

Decrewing USF tanks saves popcap and increased income, too.

So, figure that for all the bonuses above + the power of properly used and equipped Riflemen throughout the match, USF tanks don't require extensive durability because they have other strengths that represent the United States logistical and tactical superiority during the later stages of WWII, and also to encourage a unique micro-oriented playstyle.


I wouldn't bring those stats into it, the whole argument around blitz/panzer smoke/Twp/spotting scopes/crit repair is a bit too complicated to relate directly to unit survivability discussion. I'd say they all work out roughly equal

It's just a discussion about increasing investment to increase reward. Spend more resources on a tank - get a better tank, is this fair? I'd say yes if priced properly. Would it be giving USF an unfair upgrade advantage? I'd say not as Ost and okw get armoured skirts. Make the investment/utility of the upgrade give the player a reasonably balanced choice, and we'd probably see an even ratio of up armoured USF vehicles to skirted axis vehicles.

Most importantly does a problem exist at all, and does this fix it? I'd argue that in some games yes, the sherm's durability is a problem, but only the Sherman. Giving it the ability to take one more hit in the late game would be nice, and I'd be OK with paying a premium for it.
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BeefSurge
2 Oct 2015, 11:14 AM
#10
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Posts: 1891

If it's in a commander I'm fine with OPs change btw. Was speaking from a nondoctrinal point of view.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
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Keaper!
2 Oct 2015, 15:19 PM
#11
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Donator 11

Posts: 135

I would love to see those types of augmentations with veterancy. Armor increase with veterancy PLUS visuals to add those iconic improvisations to match the stats would be awesome. In fact I think I rather have a sherman turn into a Jumbo at vet 3 than have a doctrinal Jumbo added to the game. Kinda like the way armored skirts work with a few German tanks. Maybe a doctrinal upgrade costing fuel/mp could work as well, like the M20 scout car armored skirts.
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nee
2 Oct 2015, 22:48 PM
#12
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Posts: 1216

I would think it is appropriate for a commander unlock, especially if the commander's abilities are geared towards 4v4 support play. USF is already pretty good as 1v1 but IMO is crap in larger game settings, so besides revamping the stats to be biased one way or another, another path to consider is crafting commanders that favour certain play styles.
An example is that a commander with defensive unlocks (improvised armour, or even camouflaged) would have little to no unit call-ins and a light arty off-map. Hell, it could be a USF-based community Defensive commander.
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Dick Cockstone, Ph.D
2 Oct 2015, 23:05 PM
#13
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Posts: 143

USF is very fragile
September patch is out, update your game. They are the strongest faction in game.
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BeefSurge
3 Oct 2015, 01:11 AM
#14
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Posts: 1891

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Oct 2015, 23:05 PMDick Cockstone, Ph.D
September patch is out, update your game. They are the strongest faction in game.


That doesn't change the fact that their units have the lowest HP ingame. (Except Riflemen and Stuart.)
The Fascisti Will Pay.
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Nuclear Arbitor
3 Oct 2015, 09:54 AM
#15
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Posts: 2470

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Oct 2015, 01:11 AMBeefSurge


That doesn't change the fact that their units have the lowest HP ingame. (Except Riflemen and Stuart.)


i didn't know any of their units had non-standard hp
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SpaceHamster
3 Oct 2015, 09:57 AM
#16
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Posts: 474

I see you all are discussing the amazingness that is USF late game.

Remember when people said sherman was OP? Yeah, me neither.
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Firesparks
3 Oct 2015, 10:10 AM
#17
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Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Oct 2015, 01:11 AMBeefSurge


That doesn't change the fact that their units have the lowest HP ingame. (Except Riflemen and Stuart.)


jump backJump back to quoted post3 Oct 2015, 09:54 AMNuclear Arbitor


i didn't know any of their units had non-standard hp


jackson? I think it is actually the only unit in the entire game to have 480 hp.

Their heaviest unit is also limited to the bulldozer and the E8, both of which only have 720hp.

720 hp itself is actually "non-standard". everyone else either have 640 hp or 800 hp. The US is the only faction that's stuck at 720. In practice 720hp still means 4 shots kills from a tank, but the 80 hp do make a difference against schreck.


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sherlock
3 Oct 2015, 11:08 AM
#18
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Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Oct 2015, 10:10 AMFiresparks




jackson? I think it is actually the only unit in the entire game to have 480 hp.

Their heaviest unit is also limited to the bulldozer and the E8, both of which only have 720hp.

720 hp itself is actually "non-standard". everyone else either have 640 hp or 800 hp. The US is the only faction that's stuck at 720. In practice 720hp still means 4 shots kills from a tank, but the 80 hp do make a difference against schreck.


All medium tanks do 160 damage (this excludes tank destroyers like the firefly, jagdtiger and jackson).

720/160=4.5 or 5 shots needed to kill from any tank or at gun, that isn't a pak43.
Help test the USF teching adjustment mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1553135357
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BeefSurge
3 Oct 2015, 15:27 PM
#19
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Posts: 1891

USF units die the fastest ingame typically. But because of this other things in the faction get to be borderline OP: it's fine.

Outside of maybe a Tank Company or something like that this idea isn't required.
The Fascisti Will Pay.
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rush
3 Oct 2015, 15:48 PM
#20
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Posts: 341

IRL sandbags just added load on the engine and transmission and offered no protection of any sort.
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