Grenadiers - Not for the faint of micro

This is mostly incorrect. A close range Conscripts have 3.4 DPS per model and Grens have 5.9 DPS per model. A Gren squad at point blank range loses to a Con squad because the Con squad has better survability with 6 men, not because the conscript squad has better DPS. When Cons are upgraded with PPSH and thus have 9.6 DPS at close range they can lose several more models in closing and still win be it at Vet 0 or Vet 3.

"Currently the only reason conscripts can beat grenadiers is because of the fact that they have more men. At close range, a grenadier model has higher DPS than conscripts DPS by quite an amount."

^L2R

And we can't really talk about PPSHs here. They are a doctrinal upgrade, not something you will see every match. It would be like me saying that grens are great flanking units because they have G43s.

The big issue becomes when later on in the game you are dealing with squad wipes from explosives as Ostheer because of your smaller squad sizes, AND now you have to deal with the fact your squads are also more fragile to small arms.

And as I said, grens can use a 5th man, but will need an overall DPS decrease across the squad to keep the current early game dynamics.

Can we not start with the L2R insults? Are you incapable of replying to me without questioning my intelligence?

Being on this site has made me despise teenagers even more.

They may be weak agains USA or Russia , but remember the strugle of British agains Ostheer (talking 1 vs 1)

Hello internet strangers,
My frustration as of late has been the USF toss a grenade and retreat tactic. The timer on those nads are short which in my case leads to squad wiping, both in cover and out. An extra model may help ease this.

Rawr

This +100.
I think it's time they receive the 5th man indeed. It's way to easy to force a retreat for grens.

Can we not start with the L2R insults? Are you incapable of replying to me without questioning my intelligence?

I'm gonna side this time with Comm_ash as you are basically repeating the same he says on his post. Don't go all defensive right from the bat.

BTW, how are you getting those numbers? Are you running a program with simulates engagements ?

Yes we all knox axis win/ loss ratio.

I think conscript and riflemen recieved acurracy need to be taken back and change it for cheaper reinforcement cost (riflemen will cost 23-24 MP to reinforce) and weapon upgrade / utility (cons should get 1 DP lmg free at vet 3 like IS get their Scoped rifles). I think this will make game much more balanced.

And of course turn off cheese (leigt instapin , howie , commaods , churchill crocodile , USF off maps)

And fix british early game by giving em brace with only 15 second recharge time (now leigt destrois it even if braced , and mortar HT can kill it in 15 seconds if timed well) ,

IS that after 5th map upgrade reinforcement cost is decreased to 30 MP and the get mill bombs with this as well (cost increase to 200 MP[they dont need to buy medics] 35 F ),

make units able to shot out of carrier and make bren carrier with hmg like kubel (it comes later and axis have more conter to kubel than murica anyway),

Make PIATS like bazookas (increase cost to 50 M if you must), not weapons that can hit only imobilised vehicles
Nerf centaur building dmg,


And nerf their late game stuff (churchills , air strikes , give firefly more decend dmg and decrease rockets dmg and cost, nerf commandos)


I think this woul make game much more playable and balanced (1 vs 1 perspective ,maybe even 2 vs 2)

They may need also a better received accuration on vet 3, rather than a fith man.

This is mostly incorrect. A close range Conscripts have 3.4 DPS per model and Grens have 5.9 DPS per model. A Gren squad at point blank range loses to a Con squad because the Con squad has better survability with 6 men, not because the conscript squad has better DPS. When Cons are upgraded with PPSH and thus have 9.6 DPS at close range they can lose several more models in closing and still win be it at Vet 0 or Vet 3.

The big issue becomes when later on in the game you are dealing with squad wipes from explosives as Ostheer because of your smaller squad sizes, AND now you have to deal with the fact your squads are also more fragile to small arms.

I decided to run some tests on it to ensure my thesis is correct, results were quite informative!

-At vet 3 a riflemen squad with 1 BAR can charge across a field at max range and win against a Vet 3 LMG Gren squad with a reliability of 68.4%, additional BAR's or a flamethrower or 1919's brings this up to 93.4% (well adding them all together 1919 Rifles don't need to close to beat Grens)

-At vet 3 a riflemen squad with no upgrades can close from max range and beat a Vet 5 Volks squad with no upgrades 1 on 1 with 97.5% (only had the riflemen lose once due to insane RNG )

-Addition of upgrades to Vet 3 Riflemen give them basically a 100% chance of beating Vet 5 Volks even at mid to far range.

-A vet 3 conscript squad with no upgrades can close from max to close against Vet 3 LMG Grens and win 49.2% of the time (wins were often insanely close, with 1 member always being left on each side with almost no health left)

-A vet 3 PPSH Conscript squad can close from max to close against Vet 3 LMG Grens and win 68.87% of the time.

-A vet 3 conscript squad with no upgrades can close from max to close against Vet 5 Volks with no upgrades and win 62% of the time. RNG jesus holds a lot of say here.

-A vet 3 conscript squad with PPSH's can close from max to close against Vet 5 volks with no upgrades and win 83% of the time. RNG matters a lot less with the more accurate and less RNG dependent PPSH's.


Conclusion: Hard to really say that LMG Gren's are just "A-move to win" when almost every Vet 3 Allied equivalent squad can literally run up to them and win with often 60%+ reliability

I'd say the conclusion is: Inconclusive, because you'd need to run these tests a lot more times than you probably ran them to get close to the right numbers. Also, you're only testing this one specific 1v1 combat scenario, which doesn't really asses the value of each squad completely, since there are any other scenarios in which units would engage each other.

It doesn't really address the point of the OP, which is, should grenadiers get another model while keeping their current DPS, to increase their survivability against explosives/tank shells?

While I would love to see grens turned into a 5-man squad, this change would actually require a NERF to overall grenadier squad DPS to keep balance. Currently the only reason conscripts can beat grenadiers is because of the fact that they have more men. At close range, a grenadier model has higher DPS than conscript DPS by quite an amount. Increasing gren squad size to 5 and spreading the DPS across all the models will make it impossible for a 5-man conscript squad to win the fight (losses taken from closing). Even a 6-man squad would have considerable troubles.

If you add a 5-th man, the grens need to have an overall lower DPS than than they had 4-men to make sure that the increased TTK (time to kill) for allied squads doesn't give the grens a much higher advantage, since they have better DPS.

I agree with all of this. Mind if I put it in the opening post?

It doesn't really address the point of the OP, which is, should grenadiers get another model while keeping their current DPS, to increase their survivability against explosives/tank shells?

This is exactly what I'm posing to the community.

DPS changed from 16 to 14
Unit changed into a 5 dudes sqd

I agree with all of this. Mind if I put it in the opening post?

Be my guest.

This is exactly what I'm posing to the community.

Personally, I'm a bit torn on it. I think because Wehr is defensive by nature, they need some kind of weakness to explosives in that sense, in order to be able to break their lines. On the other hand, having a mortar wipe your squad sucks, but I guess that's the peril of standing in green cover with lmgs? Not sure. It's an interesting debate. Look forward to reading other opinions about it.

Can we not start with the L2R insults? Are you incapable of replying to me without questioning my intelligence?

Well to be honest he had a point there as you basically repeated what he wrote trying to make counter argument.

What about IS then? Shall we change them as well in the event of Grens getting an extra model?

I'd be more inclined towards leaving them as they are now which means they get extra model with an upgrade but they get DPS increase with it as well.


BTW: as much as I like the idea of Grens being 5 men I don't think it will ever going to happened as Whermaht balance revolves around Grens being 4 men and if this had to be changed I lot would have to been changed with it.

There's no need to add more men.
The game just needs to have better unit S P A C I N G.
You know, how real soldiers are 5-10 meters apart at any given time to prevent mass casualties from grenades/mortars and spread out further in the event of artillery.
/Thread.

You guys seems to lose point that wehr is designed to use combined arms, not lol 6 lmg grens builds. While wehr may need buffs, those buffs are certainly not gren buffs.

Speaking of ease of use, grens are absolutely easiest-to use infantry in the game. They dont need to close on enemy to deal damage, thy dont need to take any risks, they require to stay on safe distance and riflenade everything.

And, excuse me, dodging nades is pure l2p. I am chuckle when i play games where people try to toss grenades on me after first 3 or 4 dodges. On the other hand, dodging rifle grenades, as already been said, much harder.

LMGS can use close-range dps buff, and g43 need buff overall, but nothing too crazy.

I think only possible options for grens to have 5 man is t4 tech similar to british to increase squad sizes. Comes late enough, helps ostheer in late game.

Actually the only OST unit which needs buffs is grens, along with PIV. I've had more success with ostruppen than grens.

Out of all nades in the game the USF nade is the one that gives you the most trouble ? It's the easiest nade to dodge next to maybe molotovs. Poor IS also has 4 man squads, need to be clumped behind cover to be effective, and have to deal with rifle nades and the new incendiary nades.

That being said I wouldn't mind giving grens a 5th men as long as DPS is the same. Or maybe they could have a 5th member in a doctrinal commander after 3CP or something. I'd love to see a more infantry/light vehicle focused OH commander with some early-game power.