JagdTiger and Elephant need counters

Game balance is around 1v1. Period.

I agree with OP. Maybe exclude AT gun penetration, but everything else would be fine. Would the inclusion of these "nerfs" hurt a good user of these TDs? No. Does it open up counterplay and eliminate the feeling of helplessness Allies face vs. these tanks? Yes.

To all of those saying rushing in with tanks are a counter to these mighty Tank Destroyers: OP has already pointed out in his post that that is indeed an "option," however it is 100% always a desperate option that pits you against the certainty that, if you fail, you have lost the game, and if you win, then you only push them back temporarily.

To all of those saying that ISU and IS2 counter these units: Is a t-34/76 a counter to a Panther because it can shoot and exchange frontal blows? Or would the Panther wreck the t-34 because of its superior HP, penetration, range, and effective damage? If you say ISU and IS2 are counters to Elefant and JT, then make a thread stating that t-34 is a counter to Panther, please.

I mostly play team games, that means all modes 2vs2+.
These units are never seen in 1vs1, because they take too much resources and most maps don't really provide it.

In 2vs2 games you seem them more often but still I don't really use them since they are slow, have a low dps for their price and are not that hard to counter and if you lose them, you usually lost the game.

Yes you need to rush it with mediums, yes you need probably mark vehicle and yes you need minesweepers to secure your assault.
But paks are usually not that big problem, because when you rush the ele/jagdtiger, you need to use a lot of smoke. With usf tanks it's not a problem, with soviets I usually use a mortar for that.

These super units (ISU, IS2, ELE...) don't have a direct hard counter and I think it's fine for their price that you need to use combined arms to take them out.

In my opinion it sounds pretty bad that people suggest you buff bazookas, which will need to a situation where a Rear Echelon blob will just blob against a Elefant, forcing it to drive away.
That looks stupid and breaks immersion.

Yes sometimes you might lose your mediums in a rush and the Elefant/Jagdtiger survives. But that goes for so many situations in coh2, sometimes you chase a Easy8 with your panther and lose it in the end, thus you can't trade cost effectively. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, Elefant & Jagdtiger are far away from being a auto win. Especially the Jagdtiger with gets eternally dazed and takes so much resources that you don't have to deal with real troublesome units like Stuka & JP4.

I don't really fear those very much. You might not counter it directly, but just using infantry, artillery and AT guns to deal with it's support isn't too difficult as allies, while tanks flank. Impossible on quite alot of the maps ofc, but that's another issue.

There needs to be a 4v4 section. So threads like this don't get so crazy

Nerf the Germen to ground then the game will be dead. Good game for allies fanboys. Nerf everything they hate. Then the game will be called COMPANY OF ALLIES!

Game balance is around 1v1. Period.

Ignoring the most played game mode is retarded, which is why this comment is correct

If you want to enjoy 4v4, play axis or find another game

And im a team player only. However, given that game vic is around stars, when someone fields a TD like that, one can always switch to inf to cap stars and win. However, ill admit late game can really get hard for allies if axis fields those coupled with a KT or Tiger Ace. But if it gets to that, its problably GG anyways.

The current map pool for a lot of 4v4 does not allow for medium tanks flanking.
http://www.coh2.org/topic/40596/jagdtiger-and-elephant-need-counters

This isn't about nerfing late game or anything, it's about counterplay. To Be Honest I would rather them get cost decreases or even get faster then to allow it to stay as is.

watch the recent stream and how brad talks about counter-play and how everything should have appropriate and clear counter-play. That simply doesn't exist for these units.

You either have one of the rare doctrinal abilities that will work or you need an overwhelming lead. That's bad design and creates an annoying duality where you either immediately counter it, or you lose.

So if it needs to get buffs too, I'd be okay with that. As long as counters become more apparent.

everything should have appropriate and clear counter-play. That simply doesn't exist for these units

Well, with that logic, what will be counter for that unit that counters JT and ferdi?
Do you guys realize that JT and ferdi are not i-win button, they are very expensive and they arrive very late into the game, and, and(!) are only viable if enemy is massing armor, they can only, and i mean only be effective against armor, if you had two t34 and both died becuse of ferdi, and then u started to play only with infantry, That would be the end of ferdi or JT. Becuase enemy spend more on one unit in comparison to your two t34 and now they have nothing to counter, and will be sitting somewhere, tryin to snipe infantry. And if u still cant win after, then they just played better.

This isn't about nerfing late game or anything, it's about counterplay. To Be Honest I would rather them get cost decreases or even get faster then to allow it to stay as is.

watch the recent stream and how brad talks about counter-play and how everything should have appropriate and clear counter-play. That simply doesn't exist for these units.

You either have one of the rare doctrinal abilities that will work or you need an overwhelming lead. That's bad design and creates an annoying duality where you either immediately counter it, or you lose.

So if it needs to get buffs too, I'd be okay with that. As long as counters become more apparent.

But who will be the hard counter of the 1400 HP 'I-CAN-NOT-DIE' Churchill spam? 155 fuel, no number limit, faster than tigers, heavy front armor, then without heavy TDs, Axis really struggles against them. You wanna make the already slowest TDs always moving and moving, how can they be effective? What point does buying them have? In team games the heavy TDs are the most effective units to high penetrate the Churchill and force them back.

But who will be the hard counter of the 1400 HP 'I-CAN-NOT-DIE' Churchill spam? 155 fuel, no number limit, faster than tigers, heavy front armor, then without heavy TDs, Axis really struggles against them. You wanna make the already slowest TDs always moving and moving, how can they be effective? What point does buying them have? In team games the heavy TDs are the most effective units to high penetrate the Churchill and force them back.

churchill faster then the tiger??? what???

1400hp "I CAN NOT DIE" have you ever tried using panthers,stugs,panzer 4+mines/Jagdpanzer 4s,panthers???
have you ever tried Elefant and Jagdtiger against them ? pak 43s?

the churchill is a heavy tank YOU CANT INSTAKILL IT PERIOD,like EVERY allied tank,they are slow and come late and they have clear counters(ever tried mines?)

the Elefant and the Jagdtiger DONT HAVE COUNTER PLAY,they have long range,high armor, high HP,high penetration,High damage

their weakness??? INFANTRY which atm dont have any weapon to threaten them

in games weakness?? tanks which those tank DESTROYERS COUNTER so they dont have counters ATM

the churchill on the other and DOES

those units need counterplay

churchill faster then the tiger??? what???

1400hp "I CAN NOT DIE" have you ever tried using panthers,stugs,panzer 4+mines/Jagdpanzer 4s,panthers???
have you ever tried Elefant and Jagdtiger against them ? pak 43s?

the churchill is a heavy tank YOU CANT INSTAKILL IT PERIOD,like EVERY allied tank,they are slow and come late and they have clear counters(ever tried mines?)

the Elefant and the Jagdtiger DONT HAVE COUNTER PLAY,they have long range,high armor, high HP,high penetration,High damage

their weakness??? INFANTRY which atm dont have any weapon to threaten them

in games weakness?? tanks which those tank DESTROYERS COUNTER so they dont have counters ATM

the churchill on the other and DOES

those units need counterplay

Still the cost for the tank doesn justify the amount of armour and health it has...

But who will be the hard counter of the 1400 HP 'I-CAN-NOT-DIE' Churchill spam? 155 fuel, no number limit, faster than tigers, heavy front armor, then without heavy TDs, Axis really struggles against them. You wanna make the already slowest TDs always moving and moving, how can they be effective? What point does buying them have? In team games the heavy TDs are the most effective units to high penetrate the Churchill and force them back.

Hey, I know I'm not a mod, but the topic of JT and Elefant is relevant to my interests and I would prefer not to derail. Can you guys take it to a Churchill / Croc thread?

But who will be the hard counter of the 1400 HP 'I-CAN-NOT-DIE' Churchill spam? 155 fuel, no number limit, faster than tigers, heavy front armor, then without heavy TDs, Axis really struggles against them. You wanna make the already slowest TDs always moving and moving, how can they be effective? What point does buying them have? In team games the heavy TDs are the most effective units to high penetrate the Churchill and force them back.

Still the cost for the tank doesn justify the amount of armour and health it has...

Well then good thing nothing I suggested affects it's performance vs. churchills at all.

If you have problems with the churchill then take it to a thread about it. This is a thread about the super TDs performance vs. infantry and artillery.

So I have found perfect counter against JT in 2v2 yesterday.
4 Priests can do job

So I have found perfect counter against JT in 2v2 yesterday.
4 Priests can do job

Kappa 6 will do even a better job

Kappa 6 will do even a better job

That over pop abuse

Elefant and Jagtiger are fine, they are really strong tankdestroyers but they are also very expensive. And are total shit against infantry. As counters in team games does any body know if the 17-pounder can counter it?

Elefant and Jagtiger are fine, they are really strong tankdestroyers but they are also very expensive. And are total shit against infantry. As counters in team games does any body know if the 17-pounder can counter it?

whats the point of being weak to infantry if the enemy faction DOESNT HAVE powerful infantry at handhelds?